This week I am talking about career transition and direction with Ashley Stahl. Ashley is a counter-terrorism professional turned career coach and author of the bestselling book, You Turn: Get Unstuck, Discover Your Direction, Design Your Dream Career, and she's on a mission to help you step into a career you’re excited about and aligned with.
We cover a wide range of topics relating to career, including why people get stuck or feel stuck in their jobs, the top ten career skill sets, and why you should do what you are, instead of what you love. Ashley ends our conversation with a mic drop quote, one of which we could all be reminded of, “Who you are, always wins.”
In this episode you’ll hear:
- Why people get so stuck in their career and commonplace directive of “follow your passion” (8:59)
- What Ashley means when she says, “Don’t do what you love, do what you are.” (11:58)
- The top 10 core skill sets and why you need to know which one you possess. (14:09)
- How to figure out your core values and why these values matter for your career. (16:14)
- Advice for people who are in careers they love, but the organization’s leadership is less than desirable. (27:58)
- Ashley shares her thoughts about the 9-5 work schedule seen in the U.S. and how it may not be in service for everyone. (34:02)
- The myths people buy into in their careers. (36:43)
Resources mentioned in this episode:
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Ashley Stahl is a counter-terrorism professional turned career coach and author of the bestselling book You Turn: Get Unstuck, Discover Your Direction, Design Your Dream Career, and she's on a mission to help you step into a career you’re excited about and aligned with. Through her two viral TEDx speeches, her online courses, her email list of 500,000 and her show, You Turn Podcast, she's been able to support clients in 31 countries in discovering their best career path, upgrading their confidence and landing more job offers. She maintains a monthly career column in Forbes, and her work has been also featured in outlets such as the Wall Street Journal, CBS, SELF, Washington Post, Chicago Tribune and more. For her FREE quiz to get clarity on your best career path options, visit AshleyStahl.com.
Being a good consumer of something does not equate to being a purposeful producer of that thing all the time. And I think that's where people miss the mark is they say I love consuming sports. So I'm going to be a sports agent. I love fashion, so I'm going to be a designer. The way the mind works, where it draws those conclusions or those moments where it makes those decisions, doesn't always have the backing of a natural skill set or talent. What are my skills? Because according to research, when you're doing something that you're gifted at, you're obviously going to be having a better time.
You're listening to Make Some Noise Podcast episode number 399. With guest Ashley Stahl.
Welcome to Make Some Noise Podcast, your guide for strategies, tools and insight to empower yourself. I'm your host, Andrea oh and global speaker, entrepreneur, life coach since 2007, and author of three books that have been translated into 18 languages and are available in 22 countries. Each week, I'll bring you a guest or a lesson that will help you maximize unshakable confidence, master resilience and make some noise in your life. You ready? Let's go.
Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the podcast. I am so glad that you're here. It is getting closer to what we call pub date. It's the birthday of a book and Make Some Noise is coming on August 31. Last week, I was at the recording studio, the recording studio, like there's one, I was at a recording studio, recording the audio book for this book. And I did it last time for How To Stop Feeling Like Shit, I was not able to record the audio for my first book 52 Ways To Live A Kick Ass Life, but I was able to record it for How To Stop Feeling Like Shit. And last week for Make Some Noise. It's an interesting process. Anyone who I feel like anyone who was kind of in the entertainment industry, those of you listening who are in theater, or if you do voice work or anything like that, you probably understand that, that it's harder than people probably think like, you know. I think before I would have been like, how is that hard to go and just read a book and it's exhausting for a couple of reasons. One, like if I'm in an interview, or even just having a conversation with someone, if I flub over a word, even here on the podcast, if I flub over a word, it's not that big of a deal. It's really not unless I completely botch it, then I'll correct myself, which I do. But when you're reading an audiobook, you have to enunciate, you have to be articulate, and you just have to do it well. There's not very much if any room for error. I am very lucky that I have what eight years’ experience of podcasting, which is helped me tremendously. If you listen to some of my very, very first episodes, at least the first 50 oh my gosh, it's, it's bad. But I've gotten better with practice, as we all do, as well as speaking up on stages, and just doing this work. I have a lot of practice and experience. So I do think that it's easier for me in that regard. But it is still challenging. And some of the stories I tell in this book, y'all, I didn't realize, maybe it was because I wrote this book over COVID, and I was going through some pretty intense trauma therapy. Maybe it was because this book just sort of demanded me to tap in to some emotional challenges challenging, and just really difficult times that I had had, and tell the story. And I do it because I've always been transparent here on the show and with you and on my blog many years ago when I used to write a lot on the blog, and it just translated over.
And I think all that to say, when we tell our stories on paper, you know, when we just write about them and put it out to the world to read themselves, it sort of stays in our body and in our head and can kind of in some ways remain quiet. But when we speak them out loud, it's a whole different experience. When the words come from our bodies, the vibrations leave our throat and out of our mouth. Something tangible happens. That's the only way that I can explain it and I think you get what I'm trying to say. It's magical and it's hard and it's emotional and the end of the day, I think what I was just trying to say is that it it's an incredibly therapeutic experience. So I invite you all to do that, whether you have the opportunity to record your audio book or not, even if it's just being able to tell your story out loud to another human. I can't wait for you to have this book in your hands, whether it is on your device via audiobook, which I know many of you prefer that medium or the print version, both of those available August 31. AndreaOwen.com/noise is where you can pick where you're going to get the book as well as get all your bonuses. Can we talk about this webinar that I'm going to do live on August 5, for people who preorder the book? In this webinar, I am going to teach you what I call my TSA method. And it is all about self-confidence. You will find out what TSA stands for. If you come to the webinar, again, AndreaOwen.com/noise. And this is going to be intimate and you get to interact with me. I will stick around to answer your questions. It's just one of the many bonuses that you get for pre ordering the book.
Also, y'all. So the people who are very good at designing things sent me back the workbook that's going to be free for you guys. Oh my god, it's so beautiful. It's 63 pages for one, and it's totally free. I asked the most questions I have ever asked in any of my books. I act like there's like 17 of them. There's not this is three, and I counted quickly. And I counted over 250 questions. There's probably more this is this book is mostly me coaching you through these topics. Oh, it's prescriptive as my books are, but it is more so I want you to get to the bottom of your stuff. I want you to get curious and notice when you're doing things that aren't serving you, and figure out where they came from and figure out what's best for you to do to move forward and be your best self. I'm essentially coaching you through this book. And I wanted you to have a workbook that you can use. If you want to work through all of these questions that I asked at your own pace.
We're also going to have a book club PS that's going to be free. And I'm talking way longer than I had anticipated for this intro. But I wanted I wanted you to know what you're getting. It's it's all free. It's my gift to you because I believe in this topic so much. I believe in this book so much, AndreaOwen.com/noise. You can get it all there. If you have any questions, you can email my team and they'll help you out. I can't wait to see you on August 5 for this webinar, and see when the book club that's coming up later. I'll talk about that later. And I also have a really great guest for you today. Let me tell you about her.
Ashley Stahl is my new best friend. And she's not she doesn't know that yet. But she's just so incredibly interesting her background and today we're talking about work. Okay, I first let's talk about Ashley's background. Ashley stall is a counterterrorism professional. She's counterterrorism professional. Okay, let me start over. Let me start over to give her a proper introduction. For those of you that don't know her. Ashley Stahl is a counterterrorism professional turned career coach and author of the best-selling book You Turn: Get Unstuck, Discover Your Direction, and Design Your Dream Career, and she's on a mission to help you step into a career you're excited about and aligned with. Through her two viral TEDx speeches, her online courses and her show at You Turn Podcast. She's been able to support clients in 31 countries and discovering their best career path, upgrading their confidence and landing more job offers. So without further ado, here is Ashley.
Ashley, thanks so much for being here.
Thank you for having me.
We have had an entire conversation before we started recording. And I know that this is going to be so helpful because you are so informative already to me. And I love this topic, partly because I know nothing about so I let experts on who can come and talk about things that I don't know anything about. So let's talk about career. Why do you think people get stuck or feel stuck in their career?
Yeah, well, I mean, honestly, there's so many people who have come to me and said, I need clarity. And really that's the issue. You don't need clarity. You just need to connect to yourself. And if you kind of look at our upbringing, and most people if they're anything like me, they were told about options like being a veterinarian or being a doctor or a lawyer or an astronaut or a teacher. We weren't really given a lot of variety. And I think our need to survive and get by in the world is so strong, that we just kind of without question, picked a career path and it's interesting because looking back, all of us probably have a moment To where we actually made a career decision, and we weren't even aware of it. And so I always like to ask people what they do. And when was the moment that they decided to go do that. And when you really look back, it's actually quite interesting to notice that there wasn't that much thought or depth to these career decisions versus just kind of, I don't know being told, noisy advice, like following your passion or following your bliss, and the money will follow or whatever it is a lot of following.
Yeah, I have a lot of following for sure.
Yeah. But you know, I think that is there's this thing called the Google Ngram viewer. And basically what it does is it searches on the depth of Google to let you know how present a phrase or a word is. And if you look up, follow your passion in the Google Ngram it like skyrockets through the millennium. And so I think that advice became so commonplace in the combination of not being told much about our options, and just following these three worded directives have us more confused than ever.
The whole do what you love thing, too, is a three-word phrase that I think gets thrown around a lot.
Yeah, well, that's the message of my book is don't do what you love do what you are.
Talk to us about that. Explain that.
Yeah, I think a lot of people look I love cupcakes and reality television, and dogs, we will, I wish people could have heard that conversation that we covered before this podcast, talk about dogs death, food speaking. But yeah, I love cupcakes. But I would be a horrible baker. And you know, I love reality TV, but I would probably be boring, like, I won't have enough drama if I was on reality. So it's like being a good consumer of something does not equate to being a purposeful producer of that thing, all the time. And I think that's where people miss the mark, as they say, I love consuming sports. So I'm going to be a sports agent, I love fashion. So I'm going to be a designer, it's like it doesn't the way the mind works, where it draws those conclusions, or those moments where it makes those decisions, doesn't always have the backing of a natural skill set or talent. And so my book is really an 11-step roadmap to help people not just understand what job they want, or what career path they should choose, or what service they should offer as an entrepreneur, but rather to say, who am I What are my skills, because according to research, when you're doing something that you're gifted at, you're obviously going to be having a better time.
This is so interesting. And part of it is I'm assuming some listeners are doing the same thing that I'm doing is I'm thinking back to my childhood. And what was talked about in terms of career, what was modeled for me and my parents are older, they're actually even older than boomers, they're on the younger end of what was called the silent generation, or what is called the silent generation. And they grew up I mean, that generation basically had one career. You started one job, and you stayed at it. I mean, this was also when they had pensions and an amazing benefits that they don't have anymore. And my parents basically said, get a good job, find a good job and stick with it. And my sister became an orthodontist assistant, she's 12 years my senior at when when I was a little girl, and she stayed with it. And my parents were like, you should do that, you know, really good benefits, steady job, steady income. And I'm like, I don't want to stick my fingers in people's mouths.
Here's what here's what I'm noticing didn't happen, which I just realized by you saying that they didn't tell me what my strengths were like, point them out. And that would have been helpful. I feel like you're just accepting who I was, and maybe pointing me towards a career that was feasible, because I was a voracious reader, because I was good at writing essays because I am extroverted and charismatic and loud. They were they were busy telling me to do something stable and safe, because they cared about me, like, they wanted to make sure I was safe. So I'm assuming that's, you know, at least some people's experience growing up.
Yeah, well, I mean, things have definitely changed. I mean, to start Oxford researchers predict that as soon as 2033, 47% of jobs in the United States will be at very high risk of being replaced by robots. And you've got half of workplace activities around the globe that are automatable. And I mean, I was reading a study that was saying every five years one core skills that you have becomes obsolete. And so I mean, it's no secret that right now, adaptability is probably the most important skill that you can have in tomorrow's workforce. And, you know, there's some decades that it takes for a week to happen and then there's some weeks where decades happen and that's very much so I think what the pandemic reflected and if you read any book like Sapiens by you know, that the bestseller Sapiens, he taught his Biggest argument is the number one skill you need is to be able to reinvent yourself. And it makes sense considering that the average professional by age 40 has about 13 different types of jobs. And, you know, there's many different definitions for adaptability. But Harvard Business Review defines it as ‘the ability to quickly read signals and act on change’.
And I would say, if you want to continue to grow your career, it's not negotiable. And Gone are the days of you saying that's not in my wheelhouse, like, we have to move into a more curious world and professional. And I think, you know, there's, there should be less shame and hesitation around changing careers. I was just reading the other day, the argument that the only way to have the career you want is to job hop. And I totally agree, like the average professional can't even keep up with inflation with a 3% raise every year. And there's plenty of jobs out there. And I know somebody is probably listening now where they literally have to wait for their boss to keel over in order to get a promotion to get a promotion. Yeah, yeah. And so I think that we are in a world where that that mindset that your parents generation has, is just not compatible with today's workforce and how quick, it's moving.
Well talk to us about the core skill set, because you mentioned it before. So what are the top 10 that you believe exist? And why do people need to know what theirs are?
So excited to ask me about this, because anybody who's listening, I hope they have a notepad. So I had discovered after a decade of doing my own podcast, writing my own book, doing research on my audience, that there were what I believe to be 10 core skill sets, core, that exists in the workforce. And I say core, because I'm sure that there's some lingering skill set that doesn't fall into these 10 categories. But largely, most professionals fall under these 10. And I can just go through them. They're not ranked in any particular order.
But the first one is innovation. This is for the intrapreneur, or the entrepreneur. And this is actually a really important one, because I think there's a lot of people right now that are being sold the dream of being an entrepreneur, when in reality, it's just not meant for everyone.
It’s not for everyone. It isn’t.
Totally. And I think that you know, owning who you are, and being in the right position is so important. And so I think that being an entrepreneur comes down to your relationship with financial security and freedom, I found that a lot of entrepreneurs, they are going to literally experience a visceral pain, if they don't have all out freedom. Creative freedom, they want to work on their ideas, time, freedom, money, freedom, like they want to make money, how they want to make money, work, work freedom, they want to work when they want to work. Most of the time, people are simply intrapreneurs, meaning that they're a highly creative self-starter within a company. And usually they rise in the ranks quickly, a founder or a visionary needs them. And they are problem solvers. They are visionaries within a company, you know, they could have their own book of business, like an insurance agent, or they could just be a highly creative person that the founder counts on.
And the second core skill set I have on my list in my book, which is in chapter two is building. And this is really an energy that you can use, I mean, all of them are just energies as much as their skills. So it could be quite tactical, like a construction worker, or it could be a little bit more of a metaphor, like a web, you know, designer or somebody who's building a website, a web developer. So it just depends on how you express your skill set for you to decide which one you are.
And the third one is words, and that one's mine. And that's definitely yours, too. And this is for the public speaker, the salesperson, the agent, anybody who's turning words into money, and that's where they're naturally gifted.
I always say words are my art. And that's also why I only have words tattooed on my body and not pictures.
Oh, that's so interesting. How cool. Yeah, I honestly I could tell that on you right away. That's why we got along. So well. It's like two words, people just chatting it up, you know, using the words using their words. Exactly. So you know, the thing about this one that I find really important to take note of for all of the skill sets, but I especially think about it with this one is whether you're an introvert or an extrovert. Like there's a lot of research on being an ambivert but I do think everyone kind of gets their energy in one direction or the other mostly. And so if you're an extrovert, then your word skill set is going to be expressed on an external level, it can look like being onstage and being a speaker. And then if you're an introvert, it's going to be a lot more of an individual. You know, like for me, I mean deep down I'm honestly a loner who can just write on my laptop by myself in coffee shops for days on end. So you know, it's it's so important to know because if you are taking an introvert words person and making them a salesperson, that's how they're going to use their words, they're going to be exhausted. So you have to honor your core energy just as much as your core skill set.
And then number four is motion. This one is for the fitness trainers, people who are on their feet. Tt could even be for a tour guide. It's somebody who thrives. It truly is a skill set to be on your feet all day.
And number five is service. So this is for the humanitarians, the helpers, the nurturers. And one question I think of with this one, which I really do think of for all of them is, is your skill set coming from inspiration and the truth of who you are? Or is it coming from a coping pattern and a wound that you have from your upbringing. And what I mean by this is like, a lot of service people are actually just people pleasers, because they were forced to be that in their family unit. So it's important to say, and you could be both, you know, you could be a people pleaser, that had to be a people pleaser. But um, you know, it's important to know where these skill sets are coming from inside of you.
And number six is coordinators, thank god for them. You know, before we were on our call, we were talking about your team. And I mean, they're just, I'm sure they're everything for you. It's same with me, my gosh, and I have so much respect for a good coordinator. Their brains are so impressive to me, because my brain just doesn't do the details. And so the event planners, the wedding planners, the project managers, no problem.
I drop all the balls.
Exactly, exactly. I feel like that's your next book title after this. I'll drop all the balls. Yeah, you'd be like some phallic image on it, but not.
When it when it's my time, you know, like when the buzzer goes, and it's my time I will be there. And I will do well, but like the details and the time zones and the scheduling. That's all Emily.
Exactly. Yeah. And and then number seven is analysis. And I have a lot of thoughts about this one. So the analysis skill set is for the analyst. It's for the researcher. It's interesting, because I started my career in my early 20s, working in counterterrorism and national security, which I know is not the most expected thing.
I wanted to ask you about that. I saw it in your bio, and I didn't know that about you. I was like, Okay, wow, that's it. That is a You Turn.
Yeah, I like to be as random as possible. Honestly, I just, I don't know, maybe it's just me harnessing my own ADD, where I have a lot of different random paths. But national security, for me was a misunderstanding of my core skill set at its heart. And I think a lot of people are having this right now as they're listening is, you know, I looked at the job doing a lot of writing, you know, and intelligence analysis and stuff. And I thought, oh, this is perfect. I love writing. But what I didn't understand is there's a big difference between the words core skill set and analysis core skill. In fact, you're using a different side of your brain. In my case, with each one, you know, ones, right brain ones left brain. So at its heart, me working in national security was a misunderstanding of my core values and a misunderstanding of my core skill set. And I have a whole story that I'll spare everyone but just figuring out how I figured out how to job hunt on my way into national security. And that was what on the sidelines of my career national security. I started to become a career coach. And that was over a decade ago, people would say you're so good at getting job offers, can you help me and I was like, and they'd say, you should be a career coach. I was like, What does that even mean? As coaching wasn't really a thing back then. Yeah, wasn't as trendy.
And then skill set number eight, again, in no particular order is numbers. So the number crunchers, the bookkeepers, the investment bankers pretty straightforward.
Number nine is equally straightforward. It's technology. So the it geniuses, the artificial intelligence creators.
And number 10 is beauty. So beauty is the artists, it's the people who make art in the world around them, whether they're a songwriter, you know, which could arguably be the word skill set. It depends on which one you think you're leading with. Or it could be a makeup artist and interior designer. So yeah, that's the 10 core skill sets.
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Ashley's book is You Turn Get Unstuck, Discover Your Direction Design Your Dream Career. And what do values have to do you know, someone's core values? Why does this matter so much in their career? And, and you know, we're talking to a lot of people who are in a particular career and have been there for a while. So talk to us about that and how to incorporate their core values.
I'm so happy you asked because I really believe that every career has two key dynamics. The first one is what you do. That's your core skill set. People need to be right with their core skill set in order to be fulfilled. The second piece of the puzzle is how you do it. And that comes back down to your core values.
So what that really means is that how you work is just as important as what you do. To me your core values are the non-negotiable ingredients by which you live your life, the principles. And you know, given that we know that 50% of people leave their job because they don't like their boss. What we can conclude here is that how you work your environment matters just as much as what job you do. And so I'm a big believer in getting clarity on you know, maybe five most core values that you hold dearly in your life
I wait, I'm still speechless at 50% of people leave their job because their manager sucks. And that's not what you said, but because their boss is terrible. Yeah, I have never heard that stat that is staggering.
Yeah. And it makes sense. How many people have you talked to you that say they hate their boss and they have to leave? Oh, many so many. And so I mean, what's really costing companies money isn't Miss just miss placing people in the wrong role. But and or people not knowing what role they actually want? But you know, having boss leader bullies, yeah. Poor leadership?
Yes. Oh, my gosh. Okay. So I want to, that brings me to like a side question on that. Yeah. What does someone do when they find themselves in a job that they like, they might even love the actual job that they do and the field that they're in, but their manager is not, well, the poor leadership skills and human resources can't help them. They're kind of stuck. What do you what is your advice for those people? Hmm, where they love.
Tell me one more time.
They love what they do. They love what they do. They'd still love the industry in the field. They're their job, they would not leave if their manager was at least, you know, tolerable. Yeah. Because I've encountered I've had close people where that's happened.
Yeah, I think that's a lot of people. You know, given that we're talking about that 50% number. I would say, first of all, you know, you want to start with a conversation. Obviously, confrontation is really uncomfortable, but tough conversations are directly correlated to a good career. You know, like, if you're not willing to have tough conversations, then you're not going to grow your career the way you want. So, first is just to try and see if that improves anything. And obviously speaking on the ‘I’ channel and not on the ‘You’ channel from blame or shame is going to work better. So considering, you know, just setting aside a time and saying that you've been struggling and sharing whatever it is and asking how you guys can have a better working relationship. And while that's uncomfortable, you're always going to encounter difficult people and it's worth trying.
I think from there, if you just conclude that this is not workable, you have to leave your job and remember that there's a lot of different types of opportunities out there in the same vein of what you're doing. And if you love what you do, then your issue is not core skill set, your issue is core values. And when you think about your core values, I think one mistake people make is they pick words that are aspirational to them. Like, for example, I had a client who was a lawyer, and she was pretty uptight. And she knew it. And we talked about it all the time. And when she picked her core values, she came back to me with the word peace. And I remember, you know, core values include words, like I have a big list of my book, and or you can google it if you don't read the book. But you know, family authenticity, spirituality, self-expression, creativity, wellness, you know, the list goes on, and she picked the word peace. And I remember on our session, I called her and I'm like, look, peace is not something I think of when I think of you. And she laughed, and I laughed, and we kind of realized, like, that's an aspirational value. And it's valuable for us to know, but it's not a core value.
Core values, to me are decisions and filters that you filters by which you can make your decisions. And the way you know, something is a core value for you is that if you remove that word, you're not you anymore. So for example, one of my core values is humor, contrary to how serious I'm being on this podcast, And friends, like if I had a friend over for an hour, and I wasn't humorous at all, they would think something's wrong. You know. So that's feedback.
Another piece of the puzzle when it comes to core values. And maybe you can look at a list and pick a bunch of them, and then kind of start to define them, because one person is going to tell me that adventure means skydiving, and another person is going to pick the word adventure and for them, that means trying new restaurants in Miami, or whatever have you. So it's really important to kind of know what it means for you. And I actually think this is a missing piece of the puzzle in romantic relationships where people say, all we have the same values, and maybe the same religion, but how they hold their religion is completely different. You know what I mean? Like? So yeah, I think that these are the things to consider when you're feeling really stuck. And use those five core values as a filter through which you ask questions, so that you go into the right corporate culture next.
That's yeah, that's great advice. I always say about core value, just naming your core values and not talking about what that actually means is like naming your kid and calling that parenting, like, that's not how it works, you have to actually do the thing. So what is what is your core value actually look like? And I always say too that, what are the values that light the way for you when shit hits the fan? You know, not to mix metaphors here. But when when you are faced with something really difficult, like a hard conversation, like having to set a boundary, what is the thing that you're going to lean on? What is the attribute you're going to lean on, to get through it and show up as your best self? And because a lot of people pick things like creativity, and which is yes, that could be your value, but like your core values, your top values, what is it, and that's, that's helpful for some people, I just don't think that we we put enough emphasis on, on values.
Well, and I don't think there's enough instruction out there on how to figure them out. And that's why a whole chapter in my book is dedicated to it, because I really felt like people say pick your values, but there's not a lot of instruction. And there's a lot of space for people to get lost and pick a bunch of words that don't actually reflect who they are, and misguide them, which I think that's really, what careers are. Most of the time, if somebody who's listening right now doesn't like their job or isn't loving what they're doing. It's a core values or a core skill set issue. And that's it, it's a problem with what you're doing or how you're doing it. And I think what's important about that, is that if people don't identify which basket they're in, is that what they're doing? Is that the job? Or is it how they're doing it, where they're doing it? If they don't identify that a lot of people will throw away a perfectly good career thinking, oh, this job isn't for me, and they'll throw away the whole pie versus saying, oh, no, you know, the job is great. It's just I need to go work, do it a different company.
This might sound like a random question. But I saw, of course, I saw a TikTok, TikTok about it and this person was talking about capitalism. And how that well, let me just ask this before I tell you what this person was saying, what are your thoughts and opinions about the five-day workweek 40 hour a week thing that the US has embraced?
I mean, I don't think we're biologically designed to work 40 hours a week, I don't think that's how creativity works. And I think you know, I was reading a study on sleep and it turns out that being a morning person versus not is genetic. And so just the typical work hours in this country doesn't support the well-being and the school hours and the natural flow of individuals. And that's it's the same thing with diets. Like there's too many diets out there that are telling everybody to do them, but that doesn't consider everybody's body is difference.
Yeah, it kind of dawned on me. I was having a conversation with my friend Charlie Gilkey. He's been a guest on the show a couple times. And I was telling him that in the afternoons I'm so tired and I don't know if it's, you know, if it's sugar if I feel like I drink enough water, I feel like I get enough sleep. I get enough exercise. I don't know what's going on. Maybe I'm this is perimenopause. And he's like, what time does it happen? I said, usually around 330pm. And he's like, maybe your day is just over maybe like your workday is over. Did you ever consider you could just like stop working?
Yeah. Wow. I love that.
It was reminder, Mary. Yeah. Yeah, I have that that privilege, because I work for myself. And it just got me thinking about people who, who start work at the same time I do and can't leave, quote unquote, can't leave until five or six or even later. And it's just, it's ludicrous.
Oh, my gosh, yeah, I actually was just on the east coast for a month. And my partner, William, he kept pacific time work hours, which means his day started at noon, on the east coast. And he was like a different person. You know, like, he was so happy and so motivated. And so I mean, message to any managers listening, if you want to rock your team's world, ask them what hours that they would love to where they still, and it doesn't mean you have to give up the eight hours of the day. But ask them how do you want your eight hours of the day to be broken up if it's aligned with your best self and optimizing your energy? And I'm sure that managers would be surprised with the answers they get. Because we've got the night owls who would love to work from 4pm to midnight, you know, we've got the morning birds who would love to work from 5am to two, you know, it's just across the board.
It's really interesting. Yeah, I just want to get your thoughts on it as somebody who's who's in the industry of, of careers.
Well, tell me before, before we wrap it up, what myths do you, have you seen that people buy into when it comes to their own career?
Yeah, I would say, you know, we talked about follow your passion or do what you love, I think a couple other ones are climbing up the ladder. Like, I think that's a huge myth that you should climb the ladder, like we were talking about earlier, I think job hopping is so key for you to get really where you want to go.
Another myth is that you should take a job just to get your foot in the door. I mean, look, that is the worst advice. Here's the thing, I get the value of being around people that you want to know. But when you take a job to get your foot in the door, what you're actually doing is just pigeonholing yourself for a job you don't want. And then by the time they're hiring for the job you want, they're not going to think of, you know, Suzy, the assistant for the new marketing manager role, because they don't want to retrain Susy who's already doing a good job of being an assistant, you know, like, it just doesn't fit the corporate way of thinking.
So I would say, do not take a job to get your foot in the door, take the right job type of job, the right title, the right skill set. And from there, lily pad over to another company that you actually want to be at even more. So I would say anybody especially who's starting out, just focus on getting something in the domain of your core skill set.
Yeah, I have to say, I feel very blessed that when I was in my early 20s, I, because I did, I made the mistake that you were talking about in the beginning of when we were talking about not really knowing what skill set like what your core skill set is. So it's like, let's just go for something I like. And it was, I like clothes. So let me get this very expensive fashion merchandising degree, which I did, and I went into the industry and I got this really cool job. And I'm using air quotes over here as an assistant buyer for a chain of surf shops when I lived in San Diego. And I knew that that particular job was really difficult because I was good friends with the young woman who had it before me and quit and ran screaming. But I told myself, let me just stick it out for a year. And then I can get promoted to buyer, you know, etc, etc. And then when I was in this job, and I'm looking around at the people who held positions higher than me, and like, you know, where my where the ladder went, I was not impressed with their lives, they worked so much, they were so unhappy, didn't have time for anything, their families or anything. It, just what I saw and internalized was that they were not happy. And for me to quit, people couldn't fathom why I would quit that job, you know, just was this really, it was great on paper. And people were impressed when I told them what I did. And I was miserable. And I was only 22. So I did have the insight to leave. And again, people thought I was crazy, people thought I was nuts. And I just was like, I saw what my future was. And I said absolutely not. My intuition was like immediately no, and I laughed and I thank my 22-year-old self because I would be miserable. I'd be making a lot of but just oh, no, no, thank you. Yeah. And what we need buyers in the world, like, please know if anyone's listening. It wasn't for me, it wasn't my skill set?
Well, you make a really good point. Because I mean, the amount of people that have come into my coaching practice or into my online courses and has have said, like, I bought an amazing job offer and they're raving about it. I'll say, okay, but how do you feel? And they'll, they'll say, like, well, I mean, it kind of sucks. It's like a lot of work. And it's, it's gonna be exhausting. But it's really good for my resume. And I think when we live our life, you know, looking for that stamp of approval and looking to look good, as you said, on paper, that's where our soul kind of starts to dry out. And that kind of pattern of thinking becomes a way of life and you're constantly choosing what looks good on paper versus what feels good inside of you. And that becomes who you are and how you feel in your life.
Yeah, and then it turns into golden handcuffs and you're in your 40s or 50s. And have to make some big decisions.
Yeah, exactly. And that's the thing that I try to relay in the book is that who you are always wins. So, you know, there's so many moments in life where we think we're moving forward. Like what comes to mind for me is a friend who right before her wedding told me she was marrying the wrong guy. And sure enough, she did it and she thought she was moving forward. Because what better way to look like you're moving forward than marrying someone and having a kid. But really, she was moving backwards because then she had to get a divorce and start over which is no shame there either. It's amazing what she's done. But the point being that who we are what we truly want, what we truly need is always going to shine through. And so the best hack to having a sustainable career is to listen to who you are now and today.
Who you are always wins. I love that quote. Write that down. Everybody. Ashley said it. And yeah, no, I had that same moment with my first husband and I married him anyway and didn't work out. Big surprise. Big surprise.
Okay, everyone the book is You Turn Get Unstuck Discover Your Direction, Design Your Dream Career. And Ashley, where do you want people to go to learn more about you?
I mean, I'm so excited to have you on my podcast. So yay. Check out our podcast You Turn Y-O-U and turn and it's two words the You Turn Podcast,
The You Turn Podcast, everyone I would be so grateful if you shared this episode. easiest thing to do is take a screenshot share it in your Instagram stories and tag me @HeyAndreaOwen and Ashley, are you you're @AshleyStahl on Instagram?
Yep, that's me.
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