Kat Kim joins me this week to talk about personal power and divine confidence, how to discover your secret desires, and how to reclaim your self-confidence. I am thrilled to have her as part of the Make Some Noise celebratory series! Kat is a Spiritual Teacher, Leadership Coach, and founder of The School of Divine Confidence, an online school that offers spiritual training and confidence coaching to rising women leaders and change-makers across the world. By the way, all eight episodes in this special series are on video too! Head on over to YouTube to watch my interview with Kat. Subscribe to my YouTube channel to be notified when the next interview airs. In this episode you’ll hear:

  • Kat shares her journey from a crack addict, convicted drug offender to spiritual teacher and leadership coach.
  • Why Kat defines personal power as divine confidence.
  • Advice for women who are struggling with self-confidence and spiritual work. 
  • Internalized patriarchal myths about what it means to be a “good woman” and how Kat worked to untangle them like “I have to be thin to be accepted.” 
  • How Kat helps women find their secret, burning desires. 
  • Shame can help you find self-confidence.

Resources mentioned in this episode: Pre-orders for my next book, Make Some Noise, are open! Grab Your Free Bonuses – including a free workbook or a signed bookplate for your copy! Get all the details at AndreaOwen.com/noise Kat Kim’s website MSN is supported by: Better Help – Use code kickass to get 10% off your first month. Find a complete list of our sponsors and their offerings visit andreaowen.com/sponsors. Thank you for your support!

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Kat 00:00 Want to walk into the room and have people notice me? Not for just how I look but for my presence? You know, I want to be confident I wanted people to be curious about who I am and what I do. I want to make an impact and transform lives. I wanted all of these things. And at that time, I was nowhere close. Nowhere close. And I did not share this with anybody. It was like the secret secret burning desire that I had to be this this woman that had presence and power and impact. Andrea 00:34 You're listening to Make Some Noise Podcast episode number 402 with guest Kat Kim. Welcome to Make Some Noise Podcast, your guide for strategies, tools and insight to empower yourself. I'm your host, Andrea Owen. Global speaker, entrepreneur life coach since 2007, an author of three books that have been translated into 18 languages and are available in 22 countries. Each week, I'll bring you a guest or a lesson that will help you maximize unshakable confidence, master resilience and make some noise in your life. You ready? Let's go. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the podcast. As always, I am so glad that you're here. And I am also so happy that these eight episodes in this particular celebration of Make Some Noise series are on video. If you feel like watching it on video, not just this intro of me talking by myself, but the entirety the interview that I'm doing today with Kat Kim is also on video. You can find it in the link in the show notes as well as on my YouTube channel. And I really love this format. I don't know how I would feel about getting dressed up all the time. But you know, having to like get out of my pajamas. But if you're watching this on YouTube, this is the setup. My dog is right over there, gagging I'm not sure if she's about to throw up or not. But this is a common occurrence in my office. She's getting up there in years if you watch my Instagram stories, you you know Giselle, but she's getting up there in years and she's been sneezing a bit more and coughing, you know old age stuff. I think I still have a few years left of her to stick around. But yeah, this is my setup. I have this big fancy mic that is on an arm, I have my ring light in front of me which you can't see. But this is it. This is where all the magic is made. And I'm excited to kind of give you a sneak peek of what that looks like. I want to tell you, if you haven't heard I know I've been talking about it ad nauseum. But there's always the handful of people that haven't heard it yet. So please bear with me. The bonuses for preordering, Make Some Noise are so fantastic. I'm so proud of these bonuses. Today, I'm going to remind you that the workbook, the workbook is available. And all of the bonuses if you already preordered it and you haven't claimed Your bonuses, go to AndreaOwen.com/MSN. If you have not prordered it yet go to AndreaOwen.com/Noise and that's where you can find out pick if you want to get it on audiobook or print or eBook or what have you. And I want you to be able to grab your free bonuses. The workbook, I thought originally it was 40 something pages. That's what it was when I gave it to the designers in the Google Docs full of questions asked over 250 questions in this book. Holy moly. I'm inviting you, essentially to cook to learn how to coach yourself. And when the designers finished it, it's like 60 something pages. It's gorgeous. It's so organized. And it's fillable. If you want to just do it on your computer, make sure you save it first. Or you can print it out. I love a good printed workbook. I know that it's not as nice to the environment. However, I think it when it is for your own personal development. And if you're going to actually use it, I tend to give the nod, I give the nod. I find that it's more powerful for me and I believe there is research that shows this that we tend to retain more information, and in my humble opinion, things just feel more meaningful, when we write it with our own hands. There's something about doing that and I wanted to give you the space to be able to do that because there's not room in the book unless you write very tiny in the margins. But this workbook I'm certainly going to use it it's it's we're gonna we're gonna go through part of it in the book club, and I can't wait for you to get your hands on it again. AndreaOwen.com/noise if you still need to preorder the book, AndreaOwen.com/MSN if you have already bought it and you need to grab your bonuses. There's more stuff in there than that but I just wanted to tell you about the workbook. Alright, We have Kat Kim on the show today. She is Fantastic, I cannot wait for you to hear her story. You'll get a glimpse of it as I read her bio. I'm like pointing at the screen. So if you're watching this on YouTube, I just do this because I'm I'm emphatic, I am emphatic about so many things. This is just my mannerisms. All right, Kat Kim is a spiritual teacher, leadership coach and founder of the School of Divine Confidence, an online school that offers spiritual training and confidence coaching to rising women leaders and changemakers across the world. As a former crack addict and convicted drug offender facing three years in state prison, Kat battled addiction, abuse and depression to come out on the other side. Her inspiring transformation and work with real people worldwide, has landed her on set with Dwayne The Rock Johnson as a contributing coach on his motivational reality TV show called Wake Up Call that aired nationally on TNT. Today cat continues to impact 1000s of people using her bold and unconventional presence to help them build unshakable confidence in knowing who they are, and what they're here to do. So without further ado, here is Kat Kim. Welcome. Thank you so much for being on the show. Kat 06:27 I'm so excited to be here. Andrea 06:29 I am so excited to have you. We were chatting beforehand. And I was I was talking about how I found you and knew that you were perfect for this audience. And and I can't wait to jump in. So we're going to talk about power, we're going to talk about confidence. But I want to start by asking you, how did you get here? Like Were you a child and always knew like when I grow u I want to be working the women's empowerment space and talk about confidence, or was there another path that brought you here? Kat 06:48 Yeah, no, actually, my my story really began when I was six years old. And when I was six years old, my mother began feeding me diet pills. Yeah, I was, you know, I wasn't old enough for didn't have the condition, cognitive skills to understand that this is really messed up, you know, but I just remember just barely being tall enough to look over the kitchen counter. One day, I had my hands on the kitchen counter like this and I was looking up at my mom and she was at the cutting board. And she was cutting the pills in half. And she asked me, I asked her I said ‘mom, what are you doing?’ And she said, ‘well, these are diet pills and these are for adults, and you're only a child, so you only need to eat half of them’. So I just kind of accepted everything about that situation without even like questioning it or anything basically, that there's something wrong with me and my body and that I need something outside of me to be fixed. And thus began a lifelong struggle of horrible body image, no self-confidence and no self-worth at all. And I was feeling unworthy, unwanted, ugly and fat all by the time I was in second grade. And I also grew up in a really emotionally and physically abusive environment. I started rebelling at a really young age, I started smoking and drinking at 13, doing hardcore drugs at 16. Andrea 08:32 Where did you grow up? Were you in California? Kat 08:35 In Washington, Washington. Okay. Yeah. And then I started dealing cocaine. And I started dealing it and delivering it from Washington State to California. Andrea 08:48 Oh my gosh, yeah. Kat 08:51 I mean, it was no joke. And one day, I got caught, I was arrested, I was handcuffed, put behind bars in Oakland, California, of all places. And at this time, Oakland was notorious for its high rates of homicides and violent crimes. And I was smack dab in the middle of all of that. And you would think that was my wake-up call, you know, you would think like, okay, there's something not going on that's, that's not right about this and maybe I need to change my life around. But I was absolutely fearless. But it wasn't the type of fearlessness that came from courage. And the root word of courage is cor, which is the heart. It was a type of fearlessness that came from having absolutely no regard for my life, my body, my future. I didn't care what happened to me. So much so that even while I was in jail, I was trying to make drug deals. I was like, I'm here.   Andrea 08:53 But you knew how to do. Kat 08:55 Yeah, and I was like, I'm here in Oakland, I'm gonna network. Andrea 10:00 Yeah. And build my CRM. Kat 10:03 Exactly. Oh my god, it's hilarious. Um, and you know, suddenly I'm facing up to three years in state prison while I'm there, and I just I didn't care, you know, luckily… Andrea 10:32 How old were you at this point? Kat 10:34 Maybe 20, I think I was 20 at that time, and I was could have been 21. I was a little I was, I was high a lot. Yeah, all of that is a little bit fuzzy. I pled guilty, and I had this opportunity to go to rehab, they basically said, if you go to rehab for two years, and you do this, your Narcotics Anonymous every two or three times a week, and you take pee test every week, and you plead guilty, then you know, we will give you this option to get out. So I took that option, I, I went through rehab, and I cleaned up the drugs. But this feeling of not being worthy, not accepting myself, this feeling of just self-hatred, it stuck with me, it didn't go away. So it began to manifest in different ways in my life. So even though I clean up the drugs, I started getting involved in really emotionally abusive relationships with men, that completely sucked the life out of me. And this entire time, Andrea, I hated the way I looked. I walked around like I was the ugliest, meanest bitch in town. And because I put that energy out there, I attracted everything into my life that validated my beliefs that I was indeed, ugly, unwanted, unworthy. And it wasn't even until many years after being arrested and going to jail, that I was in a very toxic relationship with a man. I was very depressed. I mean, I was I couldn't even get out of bed. I was in bed pretty much all day on the couch really. One day, I was trying to like, move and there was this heavy dark emanating like energy just pushing me down. I couldn't even lift my arms. And it was really bad at that time. Somehow, I managed to get up and I was walking down my apartment hallway. I don't remember where I was going. But I was walking to the elevator elevator, I was going somewhere. And in my apartment hallway, there's this huge mirror that stands on that was like on the wall full length mirror from top to ceiling from ceiling to floor. And I remember I had my head down. And I glanced up and I saw someone in the hallway and I saw her reflection in the mirror. And she was really like she was wearing big baggy clothes, her hair was unkempt, and her face was really puffy and red and swollen, there was like stuff all over her face. And in that moment, while I was wallowing in my own toxicity, I looked at her and I was just like, oh my god, at least I'm not that bad. And she just looked it was it wasn't even just the way she looked, it was this dark energy that was coming from her. And I just think I just thought, oh my god, at least I'm not that bad. And then it hit me like a ton of bricks, there was nobody in the hallway, there was nobody there. It was just me. I had become so disconnected from the person that I wanted to be as a woman, and who I was being in the moment that I did not recognize myself when I saw myself in the mirror. That was the moment. Finally that was my wake-up call. And this is a little overly dramatic. But this is literally how it happened. I walked into the elevator and remind you the mirror now is standing across from me and I can see myself in the reflection in the mirror and the elevator doors are closing like this. And I'm like, this is it. This is it. I'm I'm gonna do whatever it takes, I'm no longer going to be this person. I will do whatever it takes to become the woman that I want to be and I want it to be beautiful. I want to be powerful. I want to be sexy, I want to walk into a room have people notice me, not for just how I look, but for my presence. You know, I want to be confident. I want people to be curious about who I am and what I do. I want to make an impact and transform lives. I wanted all of these things. And at that time, I was nowhere close. Nowhere close. And I I did not share this with anybody. It was like the secret secret burning desire that I had to be this this woman that had presence and power and impact and I never shared it with anyone because I was so afraid they would laugh at me and that they would you know ridicule me and in many my boyfriend at that time did whenever I shared something like that. He's like, oh, there's no way that's so stupid, you know. So that was the moment I decided I would do whatever it takes to become this woman. And so I began studying everything under the sun around transformation. Like talk about personal development junkie. Oh my god. I became, and I don't just study it I like go as far as getting certified because I want to know all the things. So I became…I know it’s ridiculous. So I became a certified professional image consultant. I began studying color, style, body shapes,, how to accentuate the most beautiful parts of a man or a woman's face or body. And I began to, you know, take care of myself and, you know, choose clothes that fit me. So I began to have this, began to kind of undergo this physical transformation with my appearance, I learned how to put makeup on. And then it became a nationally certified personal trainer, because I want to understand what the physical body goes through when it undergoes transformation. So I studied nutrition, biology, all the things that are required to transform the physical body, and I lost a bunch of weight. And then I became a transformative life coach. And I underwent this three-year training program where I began to understand the power of the mindset and how our thoughts are really connected to our behavior, and thus our results, right, you know, all of this. And interestingly, this quest for transformation on the outside, kept taking me deeper and deeper inside into the world of spirituality and metaphysics and energy and quantum physics. And what I discovered is that everything we are seeking in the outside world, whether it's more money, better relationships, better health, whatever that physical representation thing is, and the outside physical world, it cannot exist, and it does not exist unless you it exists in the metaphysical world, which is with our thoughts and our consciousness in our mind, in our hearts. And, of course, I became obsessed about this, and now a licensed spiritual practitioner. I've had one foot in the ministerial path. I mean, I'm so like, you know, I'm just, I just became so passionate, because what I realized Andrea is, the more that I began, going deeper, and deeper and deeper, and like peeling back the layers, I realized something that I was not expecting, and I did not even want this. And when I realized that I was like, oh, fuck, I please do not like I don't want to do this thing. But it became this thing, that the source of all things, the source of all things, is spirit. It's God, if you if you want to call it God, if you want to click creator, if you want to call it the universe, it doesn't matter. That's the source of all things. And without that relationship with that source, then you're going to really suffer trying to make things happen in the outside world. It all starts with that relationship with source. And for me, that's what divine confidence is, and why I started a school called the School of Divine Confidence, and I and I define divine confidence as having unshakable faith in knowing who you are, and what you're here to do, regardless of what's going on in the world outside of you. And so that means, regardless of how much money is in your bank account, regardless of the number on the scale, regardless of who's the president, it doesn't matter. That's the physical shadow representation of what's already in the mind and the heart. Regardless, all of those things if you have an unshakable faith in knowing who you are, and what you're here to do, that is divine confidence. So, you know, I've dedicated my career to helping people you know, create that divine confidence for themselves and I've had an amazing just you know, I've been invited to be on the show with The Rock he had a reality TV show called the Wake Up Call. I was a supporting mentor and coach there and then I was recently on a music video with John Legend so this type of stuff that's happening is I don't I'm not even thinking of this but it's just happening because I'm just aligned with with spirit, with my spirit, and with with source. Andrea 19:12 I didn't know your backstory stuff. That's all all new to me. I did not know about the the, you know, diet pills is such a formidable age. And I think I saw I saw that you used to do drugs and you don't anymore, but I didn't know you had gotten arrested and gotten sent to jail and got out of prison. That's, that's heavy. Well, that might, what you what you just ended on might be a good segue into my question about power. And so in my book, Make Some Noise that comes out in August, I unknowingly started talking about power because I was talking about money. And I feel like power is now a topic that I'm obsessed with and and make no mistake, I probably will write a book that is loosely attached to it. But I'm curious, selfishly and for people listening, like how do you define power? Maybe more specifically, like, how do you define personal power? Kat 20:12 Yeah, I define it as divine confidence really. For me. You know, we live in a culture that feeds off of our insecurities and doubt. Andrea 20:24 A lot of our economy is based on that. Kat 20:27 The consumer capitalist culture is based on us feeling insecure, and doubtful, and needing something outside of us, to make us feel okay. And when I say something outside of us, it could be as lethal as drugs and guns and weapons to something as simple as buying something on Amazon like, click, click, click, click, click, click right. We are consumed with this feeling of scarcity and lack. And we are constantly looking outside of us to feed this void inside of us. We are constantly as a culture, we need something outside of us to change in order to feel good on the inside. That's giving your power away. You We need someone to change the way they talk to us, we need someone to, you know, do something for us or stop doing something for us, we need to buy this thing, we need to lose weight, we need more money, we need the president to do XYZ, then we will feel good. That's giving your power away. Because we cannot ultimately control other people in those outside circumstances. And that's actually not how metaphysics works. That's the opposite. Waiting for something on the outside to change in order to feel good, does not work. The way metaphysics works is if you want to change something on the outside, you got to work on the inside and change that first. So for me, reclaiming your power is, is about taking your focus and your attention from this needing and desiring and constantly chasing, and bringing bringing it back to your source. What is the source of joy and happiness and abundance and wealth? It's not the physical representation of it, it's the essence of it. And that already exists in each and every human being. That is our source was spirit or God, whatever you name for you have for it. So it's this constant power and reclaiming my personal power is this constant back and forth. I don't, I've never claimed my power. And then I'm powerful all the time. I'm going back and forth from this ego desired state of wanting things in the physical world and then remembering who I truly am. I'm an extension of source God. And therefore all of the qualities of God, such as beauty, and power, and abundance already exists within me. And then I forget, and then I'm like, oh my God, I need this thing. And I don't feel good without this thing. And then my practice brings me back to, I already have the essence of that thing, that power, that beauty. It's all here. It's all here. And the beautiful thing about this when you when you really study metaphysics and quantum physics is when you are being present to beauty and power and confidence and connection. When you are feeling that and generating that within yourself first, then the physical world will align. Not by a miracle, not by hoping not by oh God did this for me, by law, by spiritual law, it, it there's no other way. There's no other way that the physical world outside of you will not align with your joy and peace and power. If you if you're if you're not feeling it, if you're feeling it, the physical world will transform. Andrea 23:54 I'm interrupting this conversation to bring you a few words from one of our sponsors. You've heard many of the guests here on the podcast who are licensed therapists and you know, I encourage everyone to go to therapy. I'm proud to have Better Help as one of our sponsors because there's so many things I love about their service. When you sign up for Better Help, they'll assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist. You'll get timely and thoughtful responses. Plus, you can schedule weekly video or phone sessions. It's more affordable than traditional offline counseling and financial aid is available. They're licensed professional counselors specialize in things like depression, stress, anxiety, relationships, sleeping trauma, anger, family conflicts, LGBT matters, grief, self-esteem, and their service is available for clients worldwide. I want you to start living a happier and more fulfilling life today. As a listener, you'll get 10% off your first month by visiting our sponsor at BetterHelp.com/kickass. Join over 1 million people who have taken charge of their mental health again, that's BetterHelp H-E-L-P.com/kickass. And thank you so much for supporting our sponsors, because that in turn supports this show. I would love to hear you talk about self-confidence, you know, specifically for women and if you wouldn't mind talking about, like, what advice you would have for women who are struggling with that, especially those who are maybe a little bit more new to spiritual work, who are kind of just like dipping their toe in? Kat 25:31 Yeah, yeah. So, um, one of the things that I help my clients do, and this is really important. Oh, you know, of course, it's about reclaiming your power, paying attention to when you feel like you need something outside of you in order for you to feel good. That's not confidence. That's when you're attached. Yeah, codependent relationship with something out there. It really is the journey of like, getting clear for yourself, what would fulfill you What are your core values? I call them core God qualities, we can call them core values. What is that thing that if you strip all of it away, if you strip away the money, the job the title, what makes you you? What is the essence of you. And that's really the hard work because people don't do that work. But if you ask yourself, what really, truly fulfills you, and you name three things, and then and then when you can get clear about that, and then start making decisions from that place. Everything begins to shift. And so it's again, it's about taking your power reclaiming your power from the outside into the inside. Andrea 26:47 We talk about values a decent amount over here, but at least I do. I love the question, what's important about the way you live your life, and that'll that'll point to your values. And I love that you mentioned making your decisions from there. As I go on and on about how this is not just about naming them, like that's like naming your kid and like a baby and calling that parenting like, No, no, no, that's not how it works, you actually have to do the work. So what is what does it look like to you know, perhaps, negotiate your salary in a new job, you know, if you have value around courage or speaking your truth or authenticity, well, that probably means that you would be prepared for the conversation, and talk about how much experience and competency and how much you're worth, etc. Yeah, I love values. It's kind of like when you just when you say like, oh, let's talk about your values. It's kind of unsexy I always feel like but yeah, um, is it important? Kat 27:42 Well, and it's important because, you know, in our culture, we're so focused on the outside physical representation of it, once again, we're so focused on the action taking, you know, just do it, like if you want something go after it. And so what we see so many people struggling with is they've done it. They've done it over and over and over and over, and it's still not working. And that's because once again, we're focusing on the physical outside representation of something. So instead of focusing on the action, and the having of something you have to really embody, you have to be the thing, the core value. If your core value is communication, for example. Okay, I'll use just an example. When I was in my toxic relationship with my boyfriend abusive relationship at that time, when I was walking down my when I had my wake-up call. He was just we had no communication, it so much so that, like he would stop talking to me for days, and I would not know. And then I would gradually… Andrea 28:44 It's stonewalling. That's what John Gottman calls it. Kat 28:46 Oh my God, and then I would wrack my brain to figure out what did I do? And I would like do this time sequence thing going backwards, trying to figure out, what did I do? What did I do what I do, and then I'm like, I must have done this wrong to make it. I mean, it was just a mess. Once I got clear on the value, and by the way, oftentimes, it's the thing that's missing in your life. What is the thing that is that hurts the most that you're most challenged with, that's the thing, that it's the value that you're being called into, to honor right? For me at that time, it was communication. And I was like, oh my God, this relationship with this man has zero communication. And the more I began to embody that quality, that value, and you know, it's not a, it's not like a cognitive thing. It's like, I, I am a good communicator. That's who I really am. I just, I just wasn't being that. And this feels really authentically aligned with who I really am. So when you choose your values, it has to resonate with you on a deep level. And when I began to embody and be this person who communicates well and values communication. It became so clear to me that this man was not the right man for me. That's when I after years, that's finally when I was able to like, see, oh, he doesn't align with my values and I need to let him go. Andrea 30:23 Those are some painful realizations. Kat 30:27 Yeah, so so when it comes to those values, be it. Embody it. And then the actions, the words and everything that comes after that will be easier instead of trying to force yourself to say or do something. It's It begins with the embodiment of it. Andrea 30:46 Speaking of embodiment, what what you might not want to embody. I'm curious if you had any internalized sort of patriarchal lessons or myths about what it meant to be a good woman. I know, you talked about you know, your your mom clearly handed one down to you that, that that sounds like it was important, at least to her and to pass down on to you that it was important to be thin. But was there anything else I know a lot of women struggle with, you know, good girls don't don't have a lot of sex, good girls. Don't speak too loudly. So what were some that you might have had? And then how did you entangle from them? Kat 31:22 Oh, yeah, well, um, by the way, the untangling processes is not something that's one and done so that my mom, what she basically conditioned into my young mind was that I need to be thin in order to be accepted. So that's still a struggle for me, I go back and forth. But I'm still confident that's, you know, that's also what confidence is, you can still be insecure and have self-doubt. But then you can also be confident at the same time not either or it's both and, right? There's that be skinny. There's never ruffle feathers don't speak up, don't share your pains or your struggles. My mom would be mortified if she knew how often I share this story, every time and she's heard through the because people interview me about this all the time. So she's heard that I talked about this. And she's like, don't do it, don't do it, don't don’t it. She has no clue how me sharing my story is not just healing for me. But for so many people. And when people, don't ruffle feathers don't speak up. I mean, it's it's almost like the same. I think we hear from so many people and then being Asian… Andrea 32:37 Throughout the United States, you know, yeah, exactly. Kat 32:38 Yeah. And also being Asian, you definitely like, Don't bring shame upon the family, just don't talk out. All of that stuff. Andrea 32:48 Those are tricky. And I'm glad that you said, you know, it's not a one and done process. I think you as we continue to live in this culture and society, these are woven into not just who we are as women and what we've grown up to, to be conditioned to think and behave and, you know, be perceived as, but also I think, as a as a country. And I know, we have a lot of listeners that are in Canada and the UK, and it's very, very similar. And okay, switching gears I want to ask you about so you help women find their divine desire. So can you can you tell us about that. Kat 33:25 It really goes back to your almost like your secret burning desire. In this consumer capitalist culture, we are brainwashed and conditioned to believe that the thing that we want is like a mansion in the Hollywood Hills or a certain car or a certain relationship, a certain label, right? This is all once again, the physical representation. But if you really were to peel all of that back your, your divine desires, and people usually don't go this deep, they're so focused on the physical thing. But your divine desire could be something completely different from that, or it could be the same thing. But it has to be something that is so pure in your heart, and almost something that you might seem like it's unattainable to. And that, for me is not just an ego desire that you think you want, but it's actually something that you're being called to. A divine desire is something that you feel. For example, my divine desire, my secret burning desire was to be this beautiful, powerful woman who makes an impact. That wasn't just my ego wanting that. That's actually, it's divinely orchestrated because people outside of me were calling and asking in their own ways and their own prayers or their own like, you know, journals like the are seeking something that I had to offer. So in other words, like spirit, or God or universe is very efficient. When a problem arises, the solution arises at the same time. And so when someone is seeking something, and you feel a calling to step up and share your story or your message or whatever it is that calling is those two or they go hand in hand. Andrea 35:25 Mm hmm. Okay, I was gonna ask you in for an example of like, what is the divine desire that is common in your community that that women have that they feel like is unattainable was the example that you just gave one of those? Or are there more? Kat 35:39 For every person is different? That's the thing. And so usually, when I see most people, they want this thing, they want the physical thing, we all want more money, for example. Andrea 35:51 Or the success or the status? Kat 35:53 Yeah, exactly. So we're so hyper focused on that thing. But then when you get into actually the real thing, the real reason for it, it, it turns into something else. That that's where the work is, and that then becomes something really, it becomes something that is not a physical thing anymore. It's something that lives inside of you. Andrea 36:15 Okay. Okay. That's interesting, because when you first started talking about that, I started thinking about my own, like, if you strip it all away, like if you strip success and money all that away, at its foundation at its core, all my divine desire is to love and to be loved. Like that's it. Like, that's immediately, but I feel like that's probably most people's. That's just part of the human experience. Kat 36:40 It's not really, yeah, and that's the cool thing, because it, it's not just for you, it's love. For me. Its beauty and power. Andrea 36:51 Okay, I have that too. If I had to rank them. Kat 36:55 Yeah, yeah. The work that I've done, and I've done this so many times with people that there's like, three, three top core qualities. So we can use the word values, but values a little bit more surface level, but their core qualities, the way that you are created to express yourself in the world, beyond, it's beyond you, it's like Spirit wants to express itself. And it's going to express itself through me through beauty and power and ease. Now, when I'm not aligned with that, when I'm not feeling beauty, whether it's physically or the essence of it, when I'm not feeling powerful, I'm totally out of alignment. I'm out of alignment, and everything becomes difficult in my life. And I just hate life. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right? Andrea 37:42 We're gonna feel like you're forcing it or doing like should and things like that. Kat 37:45 Yeah, and everything just sucks. And so for me, it's always coming back to beauty and power and ease. But it took a little bit of work for me to identify those three words, it is not just like, oh, I want it, it's like really getting to the essence of who you are. Andrea 38:03 Okay. I love the distinction between values and your divine desires, as you call it. And yeah, I would say mine are love, power. And however, I would need a minute probably of wordsmithing to describe what's my big one of my biggest desire, love and power, like I said, and also having that be contagious. Like I want to guide other women to finding it within themselves, which is yeah, luckily, what I get to do for a living, so maybe it's guidance, I don't know. But it's a fun exercise. Kat 38:33 You will know when you've hit the right words, when you think about if I. For example, I am beauty, power and ease. If I think about showing up like this in every moment of my life and for the rest of my life, like and I began to begin to see the possibilities of what can happen. And you get excited. that excitement is spirit that's experiencing spirit. That's, that's an experience of God. Right? That's like that's like living that's like, Yes, that's it. Andrea 39:09 That's the same feeling I get when I get an idea to write a book. It's also very similar to feeling sexually aroused, although it's not the same thing. But I think it's the same chakra that's happening. Hmm, yeah, it's the creativity igniting and all of that. I want to ask you about because I know some of your work is around shame and how that helps women find their self-confidence. So can you talk about that? Kat 39:35 Yeah, I mean, I think my story is an example of just you know, everything that happens and we all have our stories. We all have our secrets. I mean, I share a lot of my secrets, but I still got bored. And you know, the key is, is to move away from feeling like you're the victim like something happened to you. I mean, in many cases, as we are victim to, you know, toxic masculinity and so many other things that are happening in the world. But there comes a time when you have the volition and you are offered this opportunity to choose, do you want to keep this narrative or are you ready to choose something else that will absolutely empower you and propel you into a different place. Everyone has that moment. And that's the moment where we really have to find purpose in the thing that happened to us find real purpose. And here's the question that I asked myself. And I call it this like, that's like the one magical question that helped me actually, in that moment when I was in, you know, in the hallway during this time, during that time. I asked myself, what needs to happen in the future? Or what do I need to create in the future, such that, when I look back at this moment, I will be so grateful it happened. Not just grateful, but I will look back at this moment and think I could not have gotten there without this moment. And there is so much power in that, because that will shoot you out to a you know, a different realm, like a different like it has a dimension. Yes, it has to be big. And that is the calling. That's the calling. For me. It was so big, it was like to be on stage to be beautiful to do all the people see me now and they have no clue. They have no idea that I was once a fucking crack addict and drug dealer facing three years in state prison. But I was that I was that girl, I was nobody, no one noticed me, you know. But I realized in order to make all of the things that I've been through worth it, I had to turn that transmute it into this. Into what I am now. Andrea 41:55 Oh, my gosh, thank you, I could talk to you all day long. I just I also just want to tag on to that. And that. My opinion is that like, people don't need to have a rock bottom story, like you don't need to, you know, like, be on drugs and face time and state prison. You know, you don't, my story is that my marriage exploded and then I dated an opioid addict who lied about having cancer, like, you don't have to have those moments. It could be just that, you know, you inherited the narrative from your family about what it means to be a good woman. And it could be other kinds of trauma. Everybody has trauma, you don't get to a certain age be totally unscathed. But it's it's really about. And I want to underscore to what you said about you know, some sometimes we are victimized. There are atrocities that happened, people behave poorly to us, we behave poorly to other people, it does happen. And then when you heal from it and do whatever it is that you need to do to you know, if you choose to be an advocate for that, or an activist. How can you have that be your jumping off point, I think that people need to go through what they need to go through in terms of grief in their emotions and things. But I'll tell you what, like, I'm so grateful for the heartbreak and the trauma that I have been through. Sometimes when I'm paying a lot of money for therapy, I'm like, fuck this, who do I send the bill to? Cuz I'm tired of paying for therapy around this. And then I just I do need to change my perspective. And I do. However, I think that, for me, that was part of my motivation to just being underestimated as a woman in general. And then by people who tried to, just the way I describe it is, you know, I was in a relationship where he did his best to clip my wings. And I was not meant to be caged, or yes. And, and the universe intervened and got me out. But that was my motivation. For a little while. I was like, I will show you how great I can be without you. Yeah, and I don't necessarily, I don't know, I would need to ask a professional professional. I think your therapist or a psychologist like is that like healthy behavior like and long term? I don't think it's all that healthy. Kat 44:06 So you want to show him how amazing you are? There's like a level of like, like, revenge or like. Andrea 44:07 For a while it was like that. Kat 44:08 Right? So I would say if anyone who's, you know, if my client was saying that, I would ask them well, what's, what's the essence of that? Like, well, how would that make you feel if you could show him who you really are vindicated? And if you feel it, let's imagine let's imagine, like, he's like, looking at you. He sees you online. He's like, oh, my God, you know, like, I can't believe I let her go. And she's so amazing. I fucked up. What's that feeling that you would have? Andrea 44:50 I think it's, you know, and let me use some words to explain this. It's not just one word. Yeah, because of when I was younger and in that relationship deep down and this was largely unconscious. I knew that my life and me was destined for big things. I had no idea what they were. Yeah, I didn't know what it looked like. But I knew I was destined for this really big, fantastic life. And I didn't have it. And so I was angry a lot of the time was an angry woman. And even more angry when things fell apart. So it was like the smallness that was keeping me in this relationship, because it was, you know, a lot of history. And I was close to his family. And it was just what we were supposed to do you get married if you've been together for a long time. And so, there's, I think that there's like, maybe it's inner child work. Like, there's that 17-year-old girl who, that's how old I was, when I started dating him. He was kind of like, See, I told you, I was destined for greatness. Kat 45:44 So that's the divine desire, is the greatness of who you are. And what I would hope, you know, like what I would say is, like, help you like, take your focus away from the guy and his reaction, and then refocus on the greatness of who you are. And then we work from there, right? That's the divine desire that that's the thing for you that you're being called into. And so as you step into that, and you accept that into your life, he's, who cares what had irrelevant? Yeah, it's totally irrelevant. Yeah. Andrea 46:20 But what I've come to realize that and also through therapy, I've realized that it wasn't just him. It was it was connected to a family of origin stuff, culture, a lot of different things. He was just sort of like the easiest to point to at the time. Kat 46:33 Yeah. It's totally fascinating. Oh, my gosh, totally get it. I was in a very similar relationship. Yeah, there's, there's just so many layers and complexities to it all. Andrea 46:30 There is, yeah. Kat 46:32 I want to pinpoint one thing earlier, because you said you don't need to have you don't need to have like, you know, be facing three years in state prison to go through this. And I totally agree. And you also your divine desire, or your secret burning desire, all of that also doesn't have to be this big, huge thing. It doesn't have to, you know, like… Andrea 46:46 Say more about that. Kat 46:47 Yeah, it doesn't have to be this huge. And I think a lot of people think it needs to be for me, it was because it was very specific to me is very personal. Andrea 46:57 So do you mean like, it doesn't have to be something you do for a living? Or, joining the Peace Corps? Okay. Kat 47:17 Yeah, or being a leader, none of that it could actually be like, I just want to be in a relationship with someone where I can share vulnerably and not be judged. You know, that could be what you're being called into. That's a calling. It's a calling. I think in this world we think a calling is, is it's tied to your vocation. And it's got to be this 10-year, 20-year plan and what you're going to do for all these people know, a calling is moment to moment, it's moment to moment, and we're all being called into something right here right now. What is that thing and that's that's what so much what spirituality is about it's this journey of becoming present to this moment, taking your mind away from the regrets of the past and the worries of the future but let's be present to what you're being called into right now. Is it to be happy is it to feel love whatever it is. Andrea 47:55 To be a good communicator? Kat 47:57 Exactly, yeah. Andrea 48:14 Oh, Kat Kim if I wasn't already married it asked you to marry me I yeah, I just I love your work and your your energy and your your presence and all of those things. So thank you for showing up in your power and and talking to us today. Everyone listening I hope that you saw some of yourself in the stories and and just around your divine desires and all the things that we talked about. Kat Kim.com, is that where you want people to go, you have a really awesome freebie too. But you tell people where you want them to go to find out. Kat 48:50 You can go to KatKim.com. You can also go to the Confident Leadership Community on Facebook. It's a free Facebook group. And we're doing some amazing things there. Find me on Instagram, @KatKimOfficial, and I do have a freebie. It is called the Shame to Confidence. Like how do you move from shame to confidence with one magical question. I shared it with you guys today. But there's a whole audio on it. Yeah, good. And that's on my site as well. Yeah. Come say hi. Andrea 49:21 Yes, follow her on Instagram. I follow you there as well. And all those links are gonna be in the show notes. KatKim.com. Kat with a K. And everyone thank you so much for your time. You know how incredibly grateful I am that you choose to spend it with me and my guests. And remember, it's our life's journey to make ourselves better humans and our life's responsibility to make the world a better place. Bye everyone. Hey there. Thank you so much for sticking with us through the entirety of this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. And just a reminder, if you have not preordered your copy of Make Some Noise, it is available on Amazon online, you can preorder it in Audible and it will be in bookstores August 31. But it would be extraordinarily helpful. If you preordered it. You can find all the info at AndreaOwen.com/noise you can pick and choose where you want to preorder it. And that is also where you can grab all the fantastic bonuses. The workbook, the book plate, the free book club, a chance to win some fabulous prizes including my other books signed and personalized to you, free coaching gift cards, so many amazing things. 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