We’re halfway through the Make Some Noise special series! I’m speaking with some amazing women about how they make noise in their life. Sara Dean joins me this week to discuss our definitions of self-confidence, the importance of self-trust, and the role intuition plays in decision-making. 

Sara is a friend and colleague; and I admire her self-confidence, tenacity, and resilience. Her biggest passion is helping women own their space. She is the creator and host of the Shameless Mom Academy Podcast, which has been featured in 5 categories of iTunes New & Noteworthy for almost 2 years now and is rapidly approaching one million downloads.

In this episode you’ll hear: 

  • Sara talks about confidence, how she defines it, and how she might instill confidence in another woman. (6:30)
  • Self-trust is a big part of self-confidence. Sara shares how she determined self-trust was important to focus on. (24:15)
  • The role intuition plays when making big decisions. (35:12)
  • I talk about mindset in Make Some Noise, more specifically about creating stories in our minds that serve us instead of narratives that bring us down. Sara shares the type of mindset work that has helped her. [44:04] 
  • Using life's challenges as invitations to show up. [48:44]

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Watch this episode on YouTube! https://youtu.be/gFRQWek7M7U
Purchase or find out more about Make Some Noise
Join me for a free Virtual Book Event On Tuesday, September 7th at 4:00 pm PDT. Visit Warwick's website here, for all the details. Hope to see you there!
Come see me at Bookmarks Festival of Books & Authors
Sara Dean’s website
Sara on Instagram


Sara Dean is the creator and host of the Shameless Mom Academy Podcast, which has been featured in 5 categories of iTunes New & Noteworthy for almost 2 years now and is rapidly approaching one million downloads. Sara’s biggest passion is helping women own their space. After enduring her own identity crisis following the birth of her son, Sara took her background in psychology/health/ wellness and rebuilt her identity, one step at a time. Sara motivates and inspires women to stop shrinking and start growing. She is on a mission to inspire women and moms, in particular, to live bigger, bolder, braver #everydamnday.

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Sara 00:00
So I think what I would the molding would be around, like promoting learning over outcomes or learning over performance so that then you go into everything with like, I might fall flat on my face. And then what will I do with that? Like, there's the value right there is I tried the thing, and that was awful. And what am I gonna learn?

Andrea 00:24
You're listening to make some noise podcast, Episode 404 with guest Sarah Dean. Welcome to make some noise podcast, your guide for strategies, tools and insight to empower yourself. I'm your host, Andrea Owen, global speaker, entrepreneur, life coach since 2007, an author of three books that have been translated into 18 languages and are available in 22 countries. Each week, I'll bring you a guest or a lesson that will help you maximize unshakable confidence, Master resilience and make some noise in your life. You ready? Let's go. Hello, everyone. If you are somebody who listens to this podcast, the day that it drops, then yesterday was make some noises birthday, August 31. It's available. It's available now you can get it online, you can get it via audiobook, you can get it via ebook. I can't wait for you to read this book and tell me that you like it. I I can wait, if you don't like it.

I was gonna say no matter what you thought of it, and I'm like, Well, no,

Andrea 01:39
I I just I'm really excited for it to finally be out and in your hands. It's it's it feels like it's been so long. But we've you know, been in a pandemic. So that's maybe what makes it feel longer. I want to remind you that we are doing a book event, unfortunately, because of COVID. We can't do a live book event. But we're doing the next best thing. And we're doing it virtually, Warwick bookstore is hosting it and it's going to be online. That way anyone can come you don't need to be local. It is September 7, at 4pm. Pacific time, seven, Eastern. I know that's the middle of the night. For those of you in the UK and Europe. And I don't know about Australia, I would have to do some quick math. But I sincerely hope that you can make it live. There's no place to sign up. You don't have to sign up for it. And it's going to be taking place on facebook live on the Warwick Facebook page. So hopefully you're on my email list and you get my emails, I'm going to be sending that out to everyone. So you have the link, and I will be posting it on social media. You can follow me on Instagram at Hey, Andrea. Oh, and I can't believe I almost forgot to mention if you don't have a copy of the book yet. I highly encourage it. You might like it. Andrew own.com slash noise. The bonuses are still available. And we start the free book club on September 28 2021. We're going through four amazing, important chapters. They're all amazing and important. But these four I selected very intentionally, because just trust me, just trust me. This is going to be one of those Because I said so. The chapters are take up some damn space, shine too bright. Ask for everything you want. And then chapter nine is stop ignoring the brainwashing that we all got. These are going to be excellent conversations. We're going to be doing some digging deep and unlearning stuff and relearning new stuff. So Andrew own.com slash noise, you can get all the information there for the bonuses. Right. So we're still in the MSN series that I have. I think we're maybe halfway through May or something like that. But I hand selected women specifically asking about how they make noise in their life. How do they define self confidence? How do they work on their self confidence questions like that? Sarah Dean is here. She is a friend and colleague of mine I admire her self confidence and tenacity and resilience so much I had to have her on for the series. These are also on YouTube. We're on video. So if you want to see that if you'd like watching on video and see that I got dressed up that day, you can head on over to my YouTube channel. The link is also in the show notes. For those of you who are new to Sarah, let me tell you a little bit about her. Sarah Dean is the creator and host of the shameless mom Academy podcast, which has been featured in five categories of iTunes. new and noteworthy Sara's biggest passion is helping women own their space. after enduring her own identity crisis following the birth of her son, Sara took her background in psychology, health and wellness and rebuilt her identity one step at a time. Sarah motivates and inspires women to stay shrinking and start growing. She is on a mission to inspire women and moms in particular to live bigger, bolder, braver hashtag every damn day. So without further ado, here is Sarah. Sarah Dean is on the show again. Yay. So happy to be here. I should just make you my co host. Oh my gosh. I mean, I'm here for it. I feel like if someone has a podcast co host, it needs to be like, you know, one person is the main person, which would be hard for us. Yeah, we would be wrestling. We are both air time. We're both too controlling. Views would not be good. Reviews would be it would be review after review of either Sarah is talking over Andrea or Andrea is talking over? That we both need to stop cutting each other off. Too much energy in the room? Yeah. Okay. Well, speaking of energy, I wanted to hand select some people to come on to that I admire that are my personal friends that I know would have, you know, tips and advice and strategies and things like that. Because I want women to hear more than just from me about the topics, I go over in and make some noise. So let's start with what is I believe, you know, two thirds of the way into the book chapter 10, or 11, which is around confidence. So tell us about confidence and how you define it for you. Okay.

Sara 06:30
I think I've given this a little bit of thought. I was like, What is it? Like? What, what's it the crux of it? So what I think it is, is you're being open to trying something without knowing what the outcome is going to be?

Okay, that's scary.

Sara 06:49
Right? But if you think about people, and what made me think about this is that like, when I think about people that I perceive to be confident, it's not that they don't ever mess up. It's like, they're cool doing things in spite of the fact that they might mess up. And for a control freak, like me, I want to do things that I know, I'm gonna be like, I would like a 99% chance of being good at something before I try it. And I'm like, crap, is that a lack of confidence? Like, I should be able to do it. It's just a mess up. Like, that doesn't determine your value or your self worth, if you do it, and it doesn't go well. Yeah, I

Andrea 07:27
mean, I have self confidence. And it's been learned. But I also would like a guaranteed outcome. I think that's just part of being human. And we like safety. We like knowing what's next. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. Okay. So say that, again, it's the knowledge or it's like that what's Tell me again, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Sara 07:46
It's trying something without the knowing that the outcome will be favorable.

Andrea 07:53
Okay. Like, we're just doing it anyway. Kind of. Right. Right. Yeah. And yeah, the feel the fear and do it anyway, I describe it very similarly. And I just had this realization the other day, over the weekend, or last week. And we're recording this ahead of time. So I might have already talked about it on a podcast between when this comes out in the summer, and I grew up playing tennis. And I played until I was about 14, my dad was my coach for a long time. And then I didn't play for 30 years. And then I came back a couple years ago. And I was at a at a tennis clinic and the pro was talking about rushing the net. And I'm assuming this is similar in other sports like other net sports, like volleyball, you know, you can play in different positions, but then when you run forward, it's a more aggressive way of playing. And I suddenly remembered something that my dad told me when I was young when I was probably like 11 or 12. And he said, given the opportunity, always rush the net even if you think that you're not as good of a player as your opponent even if you're not sure you can return it because it's it's it's a way of playing offense. And this is what I remember the most he said you're going to intimidate your opponent. Yes, when and they're going to be afraid even if you don't make the shots. They are going to be intimidated that you are confident enough to rush the net. And I I have it was kind of an amateur unemotional omics my dad died in 2016 and sometimes especially when I'm playing really good tennis I miss him so much and I wish he was there. And I thought to myself, Oh my gosh, I took that like that was probably the best advice he could ever give me and I took that like into my life and it's it's a little bit of a fake it till you make it but it's more so for me was about I am going to do things that make people seem I guess that is fake it till you make it but i just i didn't. It got to be so second nature that I didn't feel like I was faking it anymore. Exactly.

Sara 09:54
So okay, I love that example because I was reading research on Women and men in confidence in the workplace A while ago, and they talked about the overconfidence of men. That's just like an A and it's not an overconfidence isn't like cocky asshole behavior. I mean, sometimes there is that as well. Sometimes this is just like general men in the workplace. And so there's this overconfidence, it's like, there's an assumption that they're just like, Oh, I'm good at this, or I may not know all the answers, but like, I'll figure it out. Don't worry, I got it. And when they act with this overconfidence very routinely, then they're given opportunities, because other people assume that they will figure it out, and that they know things. And women, on the other hand, do not act with overconfidence. And so women will be a little more hesitant around like, Well, I'm not sure if I know that or let me check her I'll get back to you or someone Bob in accounting knows better, that kind of behavior. And then they're given less opportunities. Because if you position yourself with confidence, to your point with the net, other people are going to believe you. Even if you don't believe yourself, I absolutely be like, Oh, crap, I think it's totally, she's doing oh my gosh, 100%. And I've done that. I mean, and I know you and I, both in the work that we do, there's been so many ways that we've shown up with fake confidence where we're like, hope this goes okay. Yeah, then you do? Go knowing that. Yeah, and you're like, I do know my shit. Like, I it's, I totally know it. But sometimes we don't know it until we do it. And then we're like, oh, yeah, see, like, we need to after the fact validation? Like, oh, yeah, I'm good at that.

Andrea 11:26
I wonder if I read that same research or something similar. And one of the reasons that they attribute men in the workplace just being more assertive, and, and, you know, being deemed more confident, is because as children, boys are, because we assign gender roles, boys are typically encouraged to wrestle with each other. And they also, they kind of razz each other a lot. Like, I noticed this, especially with my husband, I'm like, why are you guys like, you just like, shovel shit at each other constantly. And he's like, it's just a guy thing I get doesn't hurt our feelings. And, and I'm like, really, it's just it's so odd to me that women tend to we're different in that way. And, and when I read that research, it made sense. It was like, oh, men are boys, little boys are taught that this is how it is to be a little boy, quote, unquote. And the research was saying, when when children do that, that helps them become more confident and resilient, and be able to figure things out, like you were saying. So it was really interesting that we are socialized from a young age,

Sara 12:29
to be the way we are, we're like, positioned, we're poised for this from such from so early on. Yeah,

Andrea 12:36
I want to just tag on to that. I remember when I was applying for my very first job. When I was a senior in high school, it was at Wet Seal, which if you're a Gen X, or you're familiar with contempo, casuals and Wet Seal, okay, and I remember standing outside of Wet Seal at the mall, and being really nervous to go in there and ask for an application. And I remember, like taking a deep breath and kind of squaring my shoulders and just walking straight for the cash register at the office opposite into the store. And I asked for an application and it happened to be the manager. And then when she had called me for an interview, and she came in, she told me the reason because I had no experience before zero, like babysitting, you know, was right, right on my application. She's like, I called you, because you because of the way that you walked in and just immediately asked for what you wanted. And, and she was talking about how she likes to mentor like young women and things like that. And so I remember, I remember that I was like, oh, that worked. Like she noticed. And it matters. Yes. 100%. I was 17. And I've taken that with me. And then I say this because people ask me like, how do you find the confidence and and I'm just like, I just square my shoulders and walk in and rush the net. And I'm scared. I'm so scared.

Sara 13:52
I've like positioned myself for many speaking opportunities. Were in the back of my mind. I'm like, I'm not really qualified for this, or I haven't done anything like this. So I assume I'm not qualified, but like, I want the gig. So I will tell people that I have the content, like, I did this just a few months ago, where I was like, I have all this done for you. If you would like me to bring this to your corporation. And then they said yes. And I was like, Oh, crap. Now I have to go make all that really fast. But I didn't have it yet. You just had the ability to do it. Right. And I was like, Okay, I think that they might go for this. I don't have this done yet. And I positioned it as if I did because I knew I could come I knew I could actually create it. But it was like that going to them and being like, Hey, I think you can use this. And they were not coming to me saying like, what do you have available to serve our community and 2021 and I went to them and I was like, Hey, I'm thinking your organization could use this. Let me know if you're interested. I was like, I mean, I hope their organization can use that. I wonder what they'll say but then they said yes. And I was like awesome. I'll go make some PowerPoints.

Be right back.

Sara 14:56
Right. He was like when can we get a job? I was like, well, no No rush.

My schedule is really packed

for the next eight weeks.

Sara 15:06
Maybe like q2, q3, not right? Not right now.

Andrea 15:12
That's awesome. Okay, so we kind of talked talked about this a little bit, I think you know what your answer might be. But hypothetically speaking, it's kind of a weird question. If you could like mold a woman from scratch, kind of like Weird Science, again, dating ourselves. If you could mold a woman from scratch, how would you teach her? How would you instill confidence in her?

Sara 15:30
Hmm, I think I would. So I was, I was not, I want to say I was raised this way. I wasn't raised this way. For some reason, innately, I believed that I like performance, equal worth. And so like getting straight A's was always very, very important. To me getting things right was very important. To me, being a high achiever was very important to me. The like learning from failure, no. Like, if I might fail, I'm just not going to do it. So I think what I would the molding would be around, like, promoting learning over outcomes or learning over performance, so that then you go into everything with like, I might fall flat on my face. And then what will I do with that, like, there's the value right? There is like, I tried the thing, and that was awful. And what am I gonna learn, and it's interesting, I didn't play sports growing up. So that also limited my opportunities to fail. So again, I just got straight A's all the time. And then as an adult, it was hard, even as a young adult. And in college, it was hard for me to try new things. But like, we're not a big deal to the average person. Because I was like, I've only ever done things I'm good at which was school. Done. And it's interesting watching my son do things. And not that he loves failure. But like, I mean, the kid cannot hit a ball to save his life in baseball, but he will go play baseball and on his team, like every single weekend at these games, and I keep thinking, he's gonna like, tell me, he doesn't want to do this anymore. No, he's like, fine going and not hitting the ball. And that was so not me. And there's so many ways that he and I are similar. And he likes to be a high performer, but he also is not unwilling to try new things. And fail.


Andrea 17:18
That's a that is a huge part. I feel like of confidence. And I wish it wasn't this way, like the failing thing and like falling on your face. And, and those are two things that I talk about a lot in my keynotes is confidence and resilience, because I think they go hand in hand because they're sisters. And you learn resilience from failure, and massive struggle, and even even minor inconveniences. You learn resilience, but I love that and I do think that I it just is amazing to me. And I know this is gonna sound like an absolute No dad thing I'm gonna say here and, and a little bit cliche, but so much of who we are, is shaped by our childhood. Mm hmm. And that debit that does not mean that you can't learn and grow. It's kind of like braces like, and I know you have Invisalign. Like it's so much easier to shape your to move your teeth when you're young. Yeah. You're an adult, because they're like meant, yes, yes, yes, yeah. But I think that, yes, you can still walk into things and fail, and you can still gain self confidence as an adult and it the way that you do it is small things, small pieces of action. That didn't sound very good.

Sara 18:32
It's just some small pieces of action. But I also think that like, if you do it, if you fail a few times, and then you have to figure some things out, then you start acknowledging, and owning that you're someone who can figure the things out. And so then, like, I think failure is much less daunting now than I did 20 years ago, even though the stakes are higher, like I have a family and a house and like my kids in school, like all these things, like I can rely on income for more things than I responsibility.


Sara 19:02
Um, but when something doesn't go the way I expect it to. I'm like, Oh, so that means something. What does that mean? And what am I going to do with that? And so this even comes down to like, you know, if I launch a program, and it doesn't sell very well, then I'm like, okay, maybe I don't do that program. It's either do i do i don't do the program, and I do something else. And awesome. This just made space for me to do something else instead? Or do I revisit how I want to do it? Or do I like, it creates space for other options? And I think that, you know, 20 years ago, I was like, Oh, this just created space for me to lay on the couch and be a miserable person and feel sorry for myself, right? And now it's like, oh, that just created space for some other options for me to figure some things out. And I'm really good at figuring things out. And especially, you know, having been an entrepreneur for 2418 years and or being a mom or whatever, like there's all these things where I can I can embrace that like, Oh, I'm really good at figuring things out. So what am I going to figure out from this curiosity? Yeah, that is different

Andrea 19:57
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Can we talk about self trust for a minute because I know that you love this topic. And I feel like self trust is so intertwined with self confidence. So how did you come to to really involve yourself with this topic and understand how important it is and your

Sara 24:15
evolution? I think probably because there's been a huge lack of it in my life. Okay, like kind of pinned?

Andrea 24:22
I think it's common for women.

Sara 24:24
Yeah, it's like pinpointing that pinpointing how I feel on the out on how I feel on the inside, as opposed to like all the evidence that is stacked in opposition to how I feel so and that means like feeling like things aren't going as well as I want them to be or things are are this this, this example of the launch again, like I launched something and it didn't go that well and that means that I am stupid, and my thing sucks and I'm not a good marketer and blah, blah blah and I'm not good at coaching or whatever. And so that's like, of course, like the lack of self trust, right and then like the evidence on the other side is like, go look at your 700 reviews on iTunes or go look at the testimonials from those people that just did this program last month. Or go look at the people that who you just were on coaching calls with yesterday, who had these like major wins, like that's the evidence on the outside, right? But when you're in that moment of something not going your way used to have the spiral of like, I'm just worthless and I'm doing the wrong thing. And I'm gonna go out on the couch and cry and the truth, the truth, is that the truth inside like you have to dig to find that truth inside of you. And you have to remind yourself what and I'm going to I'll take it back to Glenn and Doyle because why not take us back to? I mean, it's either Glennon or brittnay. Right. So Glennon, so, so Glenn says, What is it she talked about this and untamed quite a bit, but she says, what is true and what is beautiful. So you have this like really awful outcome, and you feel completely defeated, and you feel like a failure, and you're frustrated, and you're overwhelmed, and you don't know how to recover from it. And then you look at what is true and what is beautiful, that failure does not mean that you're a bad person, that you're stupid, that you're not qualified, what is your what is beautiful is that like, something went wrong, or it was whatever, there was a piece that didn't work. But that doesn't mean that you're a bad person, what is true, what is beautiful is like, you're still a great person, you're still a great mom, you're still a great entrepreneur, you're still a great coach, all these things. So I think that's where my obsession around self trust has been like the constant need that I have to remind myself of those things, like how much I have to circle back to that myself. And then as I talk about that, in my own stories, how many women are like, Oh, my gosh, I relate to that. And I relate to that. And so I have this like cycle of, or the circle of self trust that I talked about with people now. And you can like really graphically look at like, what does it look like when self trust is broken? And how does that cycle become incomplete? And what do you do with that incomplete cycle? And do you leave it right there and let it stay incomplete? Or do you close the loop so that you can keep going and building upon the thing that didn't go your way?

Andrea 27:03
So what would closing the loop look like?

Sara 27:05
Yeah. Okay, so this, I told you, I had slides. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna screen share, but I'm gonna look at my slides. I can, okay. I'm super. I love a good process. I did a PowerPoint for you, Andrea.

Okay, more than I bargained for.

Sara 27:21
I know. Okay, so. So the broken cycle of self trust would start like at the top of a circle, you'd have an action step. So you take a step, then the next step would be at like nine o'clock on the circle for three o'clock, whatever on the silo. So you take an action step, and you miss the mark. So you some sort of failure, things didn't go the way you expected. After you miss the mark, you have this Miss goal, then you feel defeat, right? You're like, Oh, great, if that didn't go that way. Okay, so here's where you get, the next step becomes really crucial. Because what typically happens, we miss the mark, we feel defeat, and then we assume blame. We're like, well, I'm messed this up. Because I'm really bad at this. And because I shouldn't have even done it. And who did I think I was even try and because Bob, and accounting is always more qualified than me. And then the last step, where it becomes incomplete is we just stay small. We're like, Well, next time, I'm not gonna try that thing, or I'm not gonna go for it or whatever. And now we have this space, where we don't take the next action step. Yeah, then the cycle stops. If we look at what that can look like, when we complete the cycle of self trust, is that you have you take the action step, you miss the goal, you feel defeat, because like you're human, you're still going to feel upset, defeated, frustrated. But then instead of going into assuming blame for everything and deciding that you're worthless, instead, you remember, no, actually, I'm still a very worthy human being, I'm still very qualified and intelligent. And then you own your power that like, Okay, this didn't go as I thought it would, or as I hoped it would. And what is true, what is beautiful, is that I'm still really strong, I'm still really capable, I still have all these other talents. So what is my next action step going to be based on that based on what is true here, and then you take another step and you decide, you can decide what that's going to be. And what happens when you do that, and you repeatedly take the next you keep that cycle, you close that cycle, then the cycle starts to become action step, experience a win instead of missing the mark. And then you feel hope, and then you see potential, and then you have elevated courage, and then you're like, I'm gonna try again. Yeah, and then you keep you know, then you have this upward trend of growth and success in different ways.

Andrea 29:30
I love that. That's so interesting, interesting process and, and way of looking at it. You know, I still haven't read untamed, so good. I know I will. I will after that book, my

Sara 29:42
really good friend who I've been trying to turn on to Glenn and Doyle for years like he'd given Glen's books and she's like, I can't I just can't.

She's like she says,

Sara 29:49
I read chapters. That's not my thing. I'm like, how can it not be? I love it, everyone. Yeah,

Andrea 29:55
I just I haven't read it because I feel like there's gonna be a lot of crossover with my book and I just want to be like, clear about it. Yeah. But that the what is true. And what is beautiful reminds me of my friend Elizabeth D alto said, What is? What is your truth? And what is versus what is your conditioning? And that's something I talk about in the book. Because we have, you know, been conditioned a certain way. And I think for me, that's where a lot of my self trust is a breakdown. You know, I don't I don't trust that I know the answers. I don't trust that I can recover. On the other end. I don't trust that. You know, if I'm not met with the kind of support that I want from someone, and I can have that hard conversation and, and sometimes I often have these epiphanies in the car, you know, when no one else is in the car with me. And it's quiet. I have those two shower folding laundry, that's why I actually don't mind of all the chores and all the household chores, I'll do laundry, it's your there's my mom, my mom used to call it therapy. She used to call it therapy, like, I'm going to go do some therapy, and she'd do laundry. So, and I had this epiphany of like, what if I, what if I trusted myself all the time? Like, how would my life change? You would be like, just like a mediocre white man. Right? To have that kind of self trust, which would bleed over into self confidence and just and just the unbothered pneus Yeah, I want that level of unbothered of like, the chatter would stop of like, what if it doesn't work out? And what are people gonna say? And then what am I going to do if that happens? And what am I going to that constant chatter from? I think that's just, you know, my anxiety, DNA, but I just want the level of unbothered ness of just being like, Oh, yeah, well, it'll work out. And if it doesn't,

Sara 31:39
that's fine, too. Right. And I agree, 100%. And also, I don't know if anyone doesn't have the chatter, and the way so like, people listening to this, if people who are fans of your show, or fans of my show, would probably assume that we don't have that chatter. Today, someone was telling, I was on a coaching call, and my client was like, She's like, you know, cuz just all the massive success you've had, and I was like, Hmm, what? And I'm, like, constantly reminded of where other people see me versus where I see myself. And this is for, like, any leaders, and not to say that, like, I think I'm awful and not good at things. But like, I'm just always like, I'm just an average person doing my best. And yeah, it, it has great impact on people's lives, which is amazing. But when I look at other people's work, and you and I follow some of the same people and say, mentors, and we, I sometimes think that like we look at their work, and we're like, they figured it out, like they finally know how to do it all without being shaken by it. Like they've gotten through those barriers around self trust and self confidence. So they just do it. And they don't like zero F's, and how do I get there? And I don't think that they're there. I think that like, we're I don't think anyone there. They're just like, our clients are assuming that we're there. And our clients are like, oh, like Sarah made it, or Andrea made it and they know that they figured it out. And I just want to be like them. And we're looking at our mentors in the same way. And the truth is, and I think you and I have met some of our mentors at high levels, in order to see that, like, it's, it's a show for everyone behind the scenes, like every now it's figuring it out as they go, which is, in some ways, very refreshing, because you're like, Okay, cool. That means I can do it too. Like, I don't need to know everything, it's okay to keep going and perfectly. And then also, it's a little bit like, oh, shoot, like, I'm never gonna be like, now I got it.

Andrea 33:24
Yeah, yeah, I'm always really transparent with people like what it looks like behind the scenes. And by behind the scenes, I mean, like, in my head, I still have the negative self talk, I just catch it very quickly. Like, it doesn't get away with it for very long before. I'm like I see you. And we're not doing this today. So I, I have the ability now to use my tools much more quickly than I used to. And I don't let my negative self talk very often it does happen. Sometimes. I don't let it dictate my behavior, which I used to do. So I would let it stop me I would let it play small and things like that. And again, I still do to some extent, but like the unbothered that I'm talking about is just to be I imagine that a lot of men, and I do I know that they have their pressures, their pressures are different than ours. And I don't think that one is worse than the other. Well, maybe a little bit, but I think they're unique. Yeah, to me, I look, look at it is that and I'm very speaking generally here. And I don't mean to stereotype that men tend to not have so many browsers open all the things that they're thinking about and worrying about and stressing about 100% that's what I would like, maybe I need to just like smoke some marijuana. Maybe that's the answer.

Sara 34:39
Yeah. No, I I won't. I think that, I think, and I think that yeah, I think that that's a lot of it. Yeah. And I also I think that I assume that I'm like at some point I'll get to start closing some browsers and then in my assumption is that there's people who are who have gone ahead of me who are above me done things to a higher degree than me, and that they've closed some browsers. And then sometimes I start seeing behind the scenes and I'm like, No, they haven't really so much. Still got a lot of open still messy.

Yes. Well, I

Andrea 35:12
want to ask about intuition, because that's one of the things I also write about in the book. And I do think that it's, it's very, it coincides with self trust. So Has there ever been a time in your life where you have used it to make big decisions where you were nervous that you weren't making the right decision? Like, is this my intuition? Is this fear? Like, can you tell us about your experiences with your gut?

Sara 35:36
I'm really bad with my gut. Okay,

Andrea 35:39
I need to eat more yogurt. Yes.

Sara 35:43
A lot of probiotics. I, um, I think I've always been really good at dismissing my gut. And then after the fact being like, Oh, I should have listened kind of a thing. Yeah. Not through like making mistakes, but more like instant instincts around people and relationships. And in trying to like force that like having a feeling about something, but like trying to force it and make it work anyway. My husband and I were looking at houses, I remember, like, every house we looked at, I was like, No, I think we can make it work. Like, what if we just did this and this and like, remodel this and this. And he's like, no, like, we're not going to try to make, we're not going to try to, we're not gonna find a house that we're going to try to make work. Like, there's going to be a house out there that is meant for us already. And which was extremely frustrating to me, because he wanted to, like shop around. And when we walk in the right house, we'll know. And I was like, I don't I didn't have that level of trust at all that that would happen. And so instead, and we had these battles in the backseat of the car where I was crying, and like, we can just fix this. And we can add on a third story. And we can do this and build a barn and like, whatever. Wow. I mean, this isn't Seattle, the housing market as a whole situation. So yeah, so But anyway, But to your point, or around your question about intuition is that like, I wasn't listening to my gut, I was trying to just make everything work. And that is like my like blinders on, make it work, figure it out. And so I've had to really train myself to listen to my gut. And I've gotten so much better at it. And since becoming a mom, not in the first three years of motherhood, but since then, but I think it's because I was so lost and not experienced, like those first three years. Like, it's just, everything fell apart in terms of who I thought I was going to be in motherhood and trying to return, I spent a lot of those first three years thinking that like, I would eventually, quote unquote, go back to like, my old self, and then having to recommend like, Oh, I'm not going to go back to my old self. And so now what does that mean? And what am I getting? Who am I moving forward? And that required the listening in and the checking in with my intuition. So with that came, okay, what now, who do you want to create? And so I think in that, so that's been five years now. And so in the last five years, I've gotten much better at listening to what I want to create and taking my pulse around that very routinely. But I have to constantly check in with myself, because that's not been my conditioning, my conditioning was like, whatever you have in front of you make that thing work. Instead of like, listen in. And if this isn't working, like let's listen into why it's not working. And where do you want to go from here? Yeah, intuition

Andrea 38:20
is tricky. I talked about in the book. You know, for those of you who haven't read it, one of the things I really there's just a side note, one of the things I wanted to make sure that I touched on that I have not touched on in a previous book of mine is around trauma, and how that relates to intuition. Because as I was doing research, I was asking women, if there's there anyone who has an experience with having a really hard time listening to your intuition, and did you have childhood trauma, like you don't need to tell them what the trauma is, but just do you think that they're related? And I, I got a few stories. And one of the stories in the book is from about a woman who was basically like, it should have, there was some mental illness. And I also got a quote from a psychologist who was talking about like, when children are gaslit, when they're they're made to feel that their reality, not only that their reality is wrong, because nobody will talk about the problem that's happening in the house. And or the people that they're supposed to trust the most they can't, which is their primary caregivers, you're likely going to grow up not being able to trust your gut instincts. Yes, because you're told that they're wrong. Yes. And so I just want to say that for anyone listening, who hasn't, hasn't read the book yet or listened to the book, it was very important to me that I that I expressed that caveat. And I also want to say, Can I renew based

Sara 39:44
on your before? Yeah, they had before? Yeah. 100% and that was my situation is like, because I was in a situation when I was really young, where things had to be figured out and I and trust was broken. And it was very much like who's going to take control This and it was me, I was like, I'm going to take control this, I'm going to figure this out, like I'm going to be in. And so and so for me, it's that was immediate, like a shutdown of, of listening to intuition and more like, sort of surviving in whatever conditions you're given. And making those work for you. And so then, to move out of that is definitely trickier. And it takes practice, it takes like so much practice to, and I totally appreciate your pointing around being gaslit. And like, which is something that didn't really happen for me until adulthood with the same person who broke my choice of trust as a young child, but like rectifying that the intuition around I don't need this person in my life, and deciding, like, how that's gonna go down, and then having way more space to listen inward, because after having made that decision, and that I mean, that that created a lot more space to listen inward to be like, okay, like, if I'm no longer gonna make space for this, I'm gonna follow my gut on this, this is something I'm not willing to a relationship I'm not willing to stand for in its current state, then that makes space for me to make a lot of other decisions in that way too. And, and trust my gut around other things, even if they're hard, that it doesn't just have to be like survival mode and making things yeah, time.

Andrea 41:26
That's tricky. That is tricky. Thanks for sharing. I didn't know that about you. I had a similar situation, in the very beginning of my marriage. This is Mike, my current one that I met, and we've been married for almost 13 years. You know, I had a I had an egregious relationship before and, and even worse divorce, and then a worse relationship after that it was a rough period. And then, you know, it wasn't that long. And then I met Jason and then started really going to therapy. And there was there was some moments in there where I remember telling Amy, my best friend, and I was like, I don't know if this is my intuition that's telling me I shouldn't be married. Or if I'm just terrified to be married. I honestly can't distinguish between the two. And you know, at that point, I had like, written my first book and talked about, you know, the difference between your intuition and, and fear. And I even said, either in a blog post, or in my first book, like, sometimes we don't know, sometimes we don't know. And we have to just make a decision on something and then see what happens in the end. So I decided to stay married, and I decided to go to therapy alone and with him. And lo and behold, after two different rounds of trauma therapy, it was fear. It was fear and trauma that had made me so terrified to trust someone else like to be in an intimate relationship with someone and all that to say, like, I wanted, I wanted to bring this up, because I think that there's a lot of people out there who keep hearing like, just trust your gut, your intuition is your friend, the universe has your back. And like, those are all great sentiments. And that's all true. And there's some people who just can't, it's so much more layered than that. Like, just trust your gut, just trust your gut is bypass for most people requires a lot of bypassing. For me, yeah, requires a lot of other things. And I was frustrated. And I was like, something wrong with me. Like I can't I can't distinguish which one it is. And yeah, yeah, trauma is a real shit show. It's gonna be the title of my next app. I love it. I didn't get it perfect. Well, let's let's shift gears and talk about mindset for a minute, because I talk in this book specifically about create, and it is kind of like, you know, personal development one on one a little bit of, you know, creating narratives that work for you, and that are empowering versus different, you know, different narratives. And one of the reasons I wanted to do this series is because I wanted to get, you know, different people's take on that. So how do you talk about mindset, like, what kind of strategies work for you?

Sara 44:04
Hmm. So, my mindset strategies are super dorky. But they've worked for me for a really long time. And it's how I manage anxiety and so, so my previous career prior to having my podcast prior to having the shameless mom Academy and being a life and business coach and all that context, I was in the fitness industry and had a gym. And so as a result of being in that industry, I have morning, a morning routine around like you get up and you work out and you like get your mind straight for the day and you go and that's my like, that is my mindset. Medicine is getting up and working out. And for me, it's like that is just what when I talk about it in terms of like, why it matters. And this is where it sounds really dorky. It's getting And proving that I'm strong every day. I don't think that's dorky. I need. I don't I mean, I feel it because, well, I feel like as a former person in the fitness industry, it's like super cliche to be like, Well, you know, I get up and I do my workout every single morning. And that's like, you know, the best medicine I feel like that's like such an eye roll for the most of the world. But it's I think cliches are

Andrea 45:21
cliches for a reason, because they're true. Yeah.

Sara 45:26
It really, really works for me. And I actually was having this conversation with my therapist last last week, the week before. And I was just like, I two hours. After we got done with therapy, I was like, I have the two hours left today, and I have 37 things I need to do. I'm My mind is spinning, and I just feel like I can't control any of it. And like my anxiety was just like, really, really ramped up. And she was like, what's the one thing she said, You're not going to do 37 things, you're allowed to do two things, what are the two things that you need to do in the next two hours? And then I started going down. I'm like, No, I can only it needs to be like 18 things like I can't literally. So finally, she was like, she got me to kind of commit to like two or three things. And then she's like, what do you need to do when you get off this call to make those things happen so that you can go do those things over the next two hours without your mind spinning and I was like, I need to get on the peloton, and the getting on the peloton was not on the list of things to do. But I was like, I need to go get on the peloton for 10 minutes. And it will be like my reset, it will be my mental reset my emotional reset, it will remind me that I'm strong, but I'm powerful. And I know the way my body works, that something magical will happen when I am in this state. Yeah, and I make myself go slept for 10 minutes. And so of course, like I got off, and I was like, Oh my god, I have like 18 ideas of how to fix the problems for the two things I need to do after this. And and that's for me, that's the thing. For other people, it might be journaling or meditation. It's like whatever you do that as a routine that is simple and automatic doesn't mean that it's easy, but it's simple. And automatic is a go to response that allows you to reset your mind. And so, and some people might not have that thing or know what that is. And so then what is something that you can do as a routine for two minutes. And so maybe it's two minutes of breathing are two minutes of standing and staring out the window and having a cup of coffee by yourself. Like whatever that thing is. It just gives you that reset.

Andrea 47:15
Yeah, I like that That reminds me of. And I talked about this in the book, Jonathan fields, what was the name of the book, I think it was called certainty or maybe it was called uncertainty or something like that. He talks about what he calls certainty anchors, and they're those they like, when we're feeling really ungrounded and anxious. Like what are the things, these small pieces of action? These small bits of action book. Oh, sounds like my 20s that you can do that that help you feel grounded, that that bring you a sense of calm and safety? Really? Yes. You know, it can be something is like a walk around the block, you know, sitting down and petting your dog or your cat. You know, maybe it's like scrolling through Instagram, I don't know. But like whatever it is that brings you certainty for me. It's like the way that I make my coffee, you know, with a pack of Splenda and some nutpods because I can't do dairy anymore because my stomach anyway, certainty anchors like, what are those things? And I love that. Yeah, it's, I never I never sort of connected the dots within mindset. But it makes a lot of sense. Because if your anxiety is spinning, you can't that when anxiety is is through the roof, like that is a giant written beautiful invitation for my inner critic. Yes. That my inner critic is like, oh, you're you're welcoming me in. I've been summoned.

Sara 48:44
Right? Right. And then I think you have to make space for something new, like how do you make space for something new. So the way I make space for something new is through motion, like through moving in my body and other people I know do it through meditation, which I keep trying

Andrea 48:58
my envy those people I meditate a little bit. Same. Yeah. And I have to remind myself with meditation, that it is a practice. And that I think that for people like you and I who have these personalities that just run really high that our meditation practice is probably just going to be sitting still for 210 20 minutes, however long and making Lennart about and making lists in your head of what you're gonna do when you're done. Yeah.

Sara 49:28
I'm like, first I'm going to place this grocery order. And then I'm going to go clean these parts of the house and then I'm going to do these things for work. And now I have like three lists of 37 things and I'm done meditating.

Andrea 49:38
How much time do I have left? Which is also how I check the timer.

Sara 49:42
Yeah. And I journal the same way my journaling is always like my to do lists like, yeah, like, I can't like sit and write like, three paragraphs or three pages about like my feelings.

Andrea 49:53
My journaling is like my journaling is very short. Yeah, my journaling is usually like I answer a question like a coaching question. And, and it's just like a paragraph at the most

Sara 50:03
my therapist gave me this really great tip, which has worked well for me. And when she was back to like the idea of doing something for two minutes, she was like, She's like, how do you do with journaling? I think you'd be really good at it. And I was like, Oh, my God, No, I'm not. I said, it's a lot of stress for me. She said, I want you to pick one word and write about that word for two minutes. So pick like power, or strength, or shiny or whatever, pick anywhere to write about it for two minutes. And I was like, oh, that I can do. So then I learned that like two minutes is approximately like four to six sentences. And they're usually really good. So I'm like, look at me.

Andrea 50:39
I think that's really powerful. And and people forget how incredible it can be just these small increments,

small pieces of action. Right, tiny pieces of action. Okay, one

Andrea 50:53
more question. In this book I talk about there's a chapter around how you can use life challenges as invitations to show up in your life. So do you have an experience you can share with us? Have you ever had one of those happen to you? So a live challenge is an invitation to show up. All use, even if you didn't show up? What happened, didn't have to be like his harrowing moment,

Sara 51:18
I think I have two that come to mind. And both are like examples of talking about things publicly that people don't typically talk about. So one was when we were trying to get pregnant with my son, we didn't talk. So we went through a couple of years of infertility, and we didn't talk about it publicly at all. And it was really awful. And then when we tried to get pregnant a second time, which ended up not working, but I talked about it publicly as we were going through it, and that decision to like decide to talk about it versus not was. So it made the experience so different to feel like supported and held. And what ended up happening is I got to hear so many other people's stories as I was sharing my own in live time by

Andrea 51:56
talking about it publicly. Do you mean like, sharing it with your like, close circle of friends or like on Facebook, but all of the Oh, okay, so I like even to strangers? Yeah, so

Sara 52:07
I was talking about on the podcast, I was talking about it on social media, cuz I was talking about the podcasts that I just put out. So it was like a much more public thing. And what ended up happening at the end we have, so we kind of at the end of this journey, there was an ending that I did not see coming. And when that happened, what was it was devastating in ways I didn't expect it to be. And that lasted for a long time. But what was really powerful about that moment was people showed up on my doorstep with like, flowers and champagne and candy and treats and phone calls and texts. And like all these things. And when we had gone through this experience prior when we were trying to get pregnant with my son, the first time was so lonely, like it was literally like sitting at the dining room table crying by myself at 5am, before I went to teach boot camp, and those the polarization of those two experiences, were like it was so life changing to see that, like people want to show up if you and people want to connect with you, because so many other people have been there. And then you don't know because they haven't, because you haven't. Because no one talks about these things. And so now more recently, I've been talking about anxiety and being clinically diagnosed this year with anxiety and PTSD and what that has looked like. And again, it's like every time I tell someone, they're like, Oh my gosh, me too. Or I just started medication for this or I've been through that or my child's going through that or my partner has been through that. And all of a sudden, I'm like, I was thinking I was a weirdo because I have PTSD or something I don't think people should have PTSD. For now, I'm

Andrea 53:37
super curious about that. Like I didn't I didn't know this about you. And I didn't know that you so you were trying to get pregnant after you guys had Vinny?

Sara 53:44
Yes. Okay. Well, so we went through infertility stuff to get pregnant with him. And then a few years later, we went through it again. Okay. And then and then it was kind of at a certain point. At a certain point, you draw the line in the sand. You're like, how much more money are we giving to the fertility clinic? Yeah. And just wasn't like the chances just weren't looking good. So

Andrea 54:05
okay. Yeah, we finally just, yeah. When you said people brought your champagne I thought that was like some kind of celebrate. Oh,

Sara 54:12
sorry. No, you're pregnant. No, no. So I didn't know people were like, Yeah, I know. That sounds celebratory. No, people just like showed up like with loving gifts. Yes. Okay. Okay. Yes, sir. No, it wasn't

Andrea 54:25
like I've been talking to you offline. And you didn't tell me you know, I had a baby last week. You didn't

Sara 54:32
know but it was just this present. People brought like, I mean, it was gifts. But yeah, it wasn't Yeah, celebration. It was more on like, more gifts of morning, which people have champagne. Okay.

Andrea 54:44
I mean, if I was still drinking, I would take it I loved a good Mimosa. Yeah, or just champagne. Right, right. It's, yeah. So talking about it and just asking for help and accepting. That's what I always say. Like, let people love you. plants can sometimes be the scariest, and I don't

Sara 55:02
even think it needs to be an asking for help. I think it can just be like, letting people know like, Hey, I'm going through this thing, or I went through a thing. And it's interesting to me. Like when I recently was telling a friend I'm like, on this medication for anxiety, and I wanted to tell her about it, because in my mind, I'm like, this is like, you should tell your close friend that you see a lot You should tell her these things like right away like you have a, it's your duty as a good friend. And she's like, Oh, yeah, I started taking medication for ADHD, like six months ago. And I was like, What? Like, what you didn't tell me I was like, we're supposed to tell each other these things feeling betrayed, right? But she was like, she didn't tell anyone because she felt like for her that felt like, we should keep those things private. Like, that's not the kinds of stuff you talk about. And I was like, No, can we please.

Andrea 55:47
I mean, when I when I got back on medication, during during the panel during the beginning of the pandemic, I told it a handful of my friends, but I didn't send out like a group text to like 25. Like, celebration emojis Zoloft prescription coming through.

Sara 56:05
I suppose I probably told like four or five people. Yeah, say but via text. But now I've talked about it publicly. Like I did a podcast episode about it for May for Mental Health Awareness Month, and I talked about it on my personal Facebook page. It's amazing how many people have been like, Oh, I have the exact same combination of Yeah, anxiety, PTSD, and HSP for those who

Andrea 56:28
have an HSP two highly sensitive person. So I am so happy that mental health is a conversation that is so different than it was 20 years ago, you know, I got diagnosed in 2003. So I was 18 years ago, and I was I was ashamed that I was on medication. I hated the fact that I was on medication, I was embarrassed by it. That is not the case now.

Sara 56:49
And I still think there's things that are VR, I think there's a spectrum of what stigmatized and not so I actually think like anxiety is a very acceptable mental illness. I

Andrea 57:00
even think I think anxiety and depression are the two that are like the quote unquote, acceptable ones.

Sara 57:07
And I don't even think depression is as acceptable, really, anything, people are more secretive about that because anxiety is often people who are high performers. So okay, so I think that people, there's more of this like, and you're still doing it all and depression, a lot of times you're not, and maybe you are, but a lot of times you're not. And I actually had a conversation with a mom, friend recently. She's like, I talk about my, my anxiety, I don't talk about my depression, and the depression is the thing that really like holds me back in life. And I don't tell people about that piece. Because that pieces that's like the it's the harder one. And it's the and I would say the same thing for someone who is like diagnosed with anxiety versus being by being diagnosed with bipolar. Like, yeah, there's, I think there's a spectrum for what's acceptable, or not what's acceptable, but like what is stigmatized?

Andrea 57:53
Because what's deemed is like, you're still a functional human being exactly. Because there's aspects of my anxiety that I don't talk about that often. Like now that you mentioned, I've mentioned a few times, like I have some OCD tendencies, as well as, especially when I had postpartum anxiety when it was at its worst, there was some psychosis where I was paranoid that somebody was gonna come in and steal him. And I couldn't tell anyone about it, because I was afraid that they were going to take him away from me. And that happened again last year. So I know, I have a tendency to like, my brain wants to go down that path. And I think that's one of those stigmas of like, Oh, yeah, where my, my inner critic tells me like, that's where you draw the line. Like, don't tell people about that. Right. And I think when people when we're talking about like, bipolar disorder, and I mean, even like schizophrenia, like that's, those are still I think, heavily stigmatized, even addiction. Still sure, for sure, but I am I'm glad that we're making progress, at least culturally and socially. Yes, yeah. I counting on Gen Z to save us all. I know. Okay, we need to wrap up. Um, Tell me Tell everyone where they can find you. So they can go follow you on the Instagram.

Sara 59:09
Yes, I'm at shameless mom Academy. So my podcast and you have a podcast. My podcast is shameless mom Academy, and then on Instagram at shameless mom Academy. And yeah, they can find me there. And we have a Facebook group for moms at shameless mom comm slash Facebook if people want to be in community with other shameless moms

Andrea 59:26
get more of you and all the other shameless moms. Thank you so much for being here. And listeners. Thank you so much for staying with us this whole hour. Please, please, please share this episode. You can take a screenshot of it wherever you listen to your podcast on your phone. Tag, me and Sarah, and remember everyone, it's our life's journey to make ourselves better humans and our life's responsibility to make the world a better place. Bye for now.