This week Anna Stromquist and Kristina Wiltsee from This Spiritual Fix join me on the show. What caught my attention about their work, on TikTok, of course, is that they talk about primal wounds: abandonment, rejection, injustice and betrayal, and humiliation. I mean, who doesn’t struggle with those, right? I love their work and I am happy to share our conversation with you today.
In case you are new to Anna and Kristina, they are the hosts of the podcast This Spiritual Fix which within just four months of launching hit #2 on the Apple Podcasts Spiritual charts in the USA, and has hit #1 in a handful of countries and top #100 in over fifty countries.
Some of the topics we discussed include:
- What spirituality mean to Anna and Kristina (7:26)
- We dive deep into the primal wounds: what they are and how to start and heal them: Abandonment, rejection, injustice, betrayal, and humiliation (11:13)
You know how I love a good personal development book, right? I’ve compiled a list of book recommendations, as mentioned in past episodes. Check out these amazing book recommendations here. Happy reading!
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ANNA STROMQUIST If you saw Anna on the street, you would probably say that she has a lot going on. She could be chasing after her bulldog puppy, dressed to the nines for no reason at all, or wearing scrubs after seeing clients in her private healthcare business. When she isn’t juggling her million-and-one interests, she is laughing with her handsome older husband, or playing hide-and-go seek with the kids.
Anna is a projector (who provides the guidance to the duo), a Leo (with a Scorpio moon – oh no!), and an Activity-sorter who lives without fear of being seen as weird by her family members, who lovingly tolerate her interests in aliens, angels, and enlightenment.
KRISTINA WILTSEE When first meeting Kristina you may be a little annoyed with her uncanny ability to read your mind. Once you realize there is nothing in there that she hasn’t already seen in her own mind (or in someone else’s), then you feel the freedom of not being judged for any of the things you do — or even think.
When Kristina is not gardening on her farmland (possibly naked), chanting to the moon (also, possibly naked), or on a work-call (hopefully, not naked) she is writing one of her self-help books or novels, or teaching her kids to listen to their heart-voice instead of their mind-voice. Kristina is a generator (human design: who provides the energy to the duo), a Pisces Taurus ascending, and a Systems sorter (NLP: a mixture of Activity, information and place) who thinks her husband is smokin’ hot.
Kristina is currently accepting new clients for intuitive reading session —where you can ask questions or receive guidance and coaching, or just better embrace the bigger you.
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It grows, it shrinks, it contracts, it expands it you know it's inspired by other people's spirituality and it's constantly morphing and it doesn't have any rules other than to be embodied in me as a human as much as possible.
To me spirituality is basically about the connection you have to yourself and the world around you. So we are all spiritual beings because we are all connecting with others. Even the hermit in a cave is spiritual because he or she is connecting with herself.
You're listening to Make Some Noise Podcast episode number 462 with guests, Anna Stromquist and Kristina Wiltsee.
Welcome to Make Some Noise Podcast your guide for strategies, tools and insight to empower yourself. I'm your host Andrea Owen, global speaker, entrepreneur, life coach since 2007, and author of three books that have been translated into 18 languages and are available in 22 countries. Each week, I'll bring you a guest or a lesson that will help you maximize unshakable confidence, master resilience and make some noise in your life. You ready? Let's go.
Hey, everybody, I hope this podcast episode finds you well. Welcome to the show. Welcome back to the show. So I'm recording this on what's today? Today is Monday, June 27. My fabulous and amazing podcast producer Darlene is going on vacation this summer as she's so deserved so a lot of these episodes are batched way in advance and this is the first time I have sat down to record anything for you since Friday, June 24. And the announcement from the Supreme Court here in the United States of overturning Roe vs. Wade. And it's been a rough few days, right? I know you're listening to this, like a week and a half or two weeks after I'm recording this, but I think I just want to say just this one thing and I'm gonna move into the episode, is that it's okay to not be okay. It's okay to not be okay. I know that the personal development industry can be rife with invitations to be inspired and to be motivated and to fight and to take action and I think all of that is great when you are ready. And if you're not in that place, you can start to feel overwhelmed, you can start to feel like you're doing it wrong, like you're letting people down, like you're a disappointment. Your inner critic can come in and have all kinds of things to say. And then we have feelings about that. And that's not helpful. So that's all I'm gonna say about that. I am going to record a minisode that hopefully will come out a couple of days after this episode. More about that. And I just really hope that you're taking care of yourself. Alright? Alright.
Let's get into the show. I am excited to move into this theme that we're doing on spirituality and creativity. I have several different topics within that theme. And I found these two amazing women, Anna and Kristina, on TikTok and you'll hear more about that and what caught my intention is they talk about these primal wounds, abandonment, rejection, injustice, betrayal and humiliation which we're going to get more into. And I just I really love their work and so let me tell you a little bit about them before we jump in.
So first Anna Stromquist. If you saw and on the street, you would probably say she has a lot going on. She could be chasing after her bulldog puppy, dressed to the nines for no reason at all, or wearing scrubs after seeing clients in her private health care business. When she isn't juggling her million and one interests she is laughing with her handsome older husband or playing hide and go seek with her kids. And is a Projector, who provides the guidance to the duo of her and Kristina, a Leo and an activity sorter, who lives without fear of being seen as weird by her family members who lovingly tolerates her interest in aliens, angels and enlightenment.
And next is Kristina Wiltse. When first meeting Kristina, you may be a little annoyed with her uncanny ability to read your mind. Once you realize there is nothing in there that she hasn't already seen in her own mind, then you feel the freedom of not being judged for any of the things you do or even think. When Kristina is not gardening on her farmland, possibly naked, chanting to the moon, also possibly naked, or on a work call, hopefully not naked, she's writing one of her self-help books or novels or teaching her kids to listen to their heart voice instead of their mind voice. Kristina is a Generator, a Pisces, Taurus ascending and a systems sorter who thinks her husband is smokin hot. So without further ado, here is Anna and Kristina.
Kristina and Anna, thank you so much for being here.
Anna and Kristina 06:46
Thank you for having us.
Yeah, I was telling you before we started recording, it's such a treat to have two people on and we've done it a few times has always been really, really amazing. And so I'm excited to jump in, I found the two of you on TikTok and a so many of my guests this year have been from tick tock and I've all been amazing. I love the medium. And as you know, this theme is on spirituality and I'm going to start with a very general question because I'm interviewing people all across the board and different spiritual modalities. And can you tell us, and I would love to hear from both of you on this? Can you tell us what does spirituality mean to you?
Sure, Kristina, do you want to go first? Or do you want me to go? Doesn't matter?
You go, you go.
Spirituality to me… Well, you know, I feel like first of all, we all know that there's a big difference between being spiritual and being religious, right? Like religion has to do with doing what you're told to do, and, and kind of this prescriptive relationship with God or your Creator. Whereas I think spirituality encompasses everything. You know, you can be, you can be atheist, and be very spiritual, you know, and you can be Christian or Jewish or Islamic or whatever, and you can be spiritual. And to me, spirituality is basically, self-reflect, like, basically your relationship with yourself and that can be ultimately also with the Creator. If you believe that deep down inside you are God. It can just be your relationship with yourself and others. So to me, spirituality is basically about the connection you have to yourself and the world around you. So we are all spiritual beings because we are all connecting with others. Even the hermit in a cave is spiritual, because he or she is connecting with herself. So to me, the spiritual journey, there's a million different ways to be spiritual, because there's a million different ways that we connect with others. So to me, everyone's spiritual. And I was looking at our stats just this morning, and people all over the world, in all different countries governed by all different religions are listening to our podcast and I'm sure you have that too because I think deep down inside is just about connection with self and others. So it doesn't really matter what other people or other religions are telling you what to do. Ultimately, it's just about connection.
Mm hmm. Okay, I love that. That answer really takes the pressure off. Yeah. Kristina, what about you?
So I would say that it's very similar to Anna's, if I were to kind of blend in my own color into it like I would say that, that in a lot of ways, you know, the confines of spirituality. Like when I was younger, I used to think that spirituality was like something that was like above me and it was something that I then needed to like that it felt like it was the sacred and then everything in daily life was the mundane. Right? And so it's like you had the sacred and the sacred was the spirituality part and they were somewhat compartmentalized, and they were somewhat separate. Right? And I think that for me going to church or going to any sort of things when I was younger, kind of emphasized that. That was like this is the spiritual time, or this is the religious time and then otherwise I'm just kind of doing everything else, right? And it was only as I started to grow that the process of spirituality for me has been an uncompartmentalizing of spirituality and only certain aspects of my life. So basically, my life has become this spiritual practice and it's all about, like, how do I integrate it into everything that I do and to everything that I am? So it's like, it's spontaneous, it grows, it shrinks, it contracts, it expands it, you know, it's inspired by other people's spirituality, and it's constantly morphing, and it doesn't have any rules other than to be embodied in me as a human as much as possible.
Oo, I love that so much. It sounds like you both sort of defined spirituality for yourself and also, what I'm picking up is that you say it with such, no such reverence, but like so much confidence in yours in like, this is what it is like, there's no questioning, there's no like, oh, but what if it actually isn't this? Like, what if, on the other side, it's different? So I love that. Thank you so much for articulating that.
I want to spend some time talking about the primal wounds. And that is initially how I found you on TikToc. I think it was, I think it was Anna, I might be wrong showed up on my for you page talking about these primal wounds. And so you say there are I think five of them abandonment, rejection, injustice, betrayal, and humiliation. Is that correct?
Okay. So can you tell us, I know that this is another huge question and it might and feel free to take as long as you want to jot about it, but can you tell us about these? And my second part of the question is, are we born with them or because I have like a personal anecdote I want to share where I'm suspicious that we are born with them or this, or do they just happen, you know, around that before the age of seven? Or is it both?
So I think modern psychologists would say that they develop, but I would believe that we are born with them because you could take a you know, you could take a family with five different children, and have the same events happen and they're all five going to have different reactions. For example, let's say a parent has five kids and that parent dies. The first child might perceive that death as a betrayal. My parent has betrayed me or God has betrayed me, they've taken away someone I love. The second child could perceive that loss is abandonment, my mother has abandoned me, I'm all alone in this world. The third child could say what this is an injustice. This is not fair. Everyone else gets their mom and I don't right? The fourth child could put the spin on it of rejection. God has rejected me life has rejected me, my mother rejected me, she left me. And then the fifth person could be humiliated, like something must be wrong with me. I must be shameful or horrible for my mom to have died, right? So that's like, in a nutshell, just basically how we can all put our own spin on it.
And I think that certain life events can like make them worse or stronger. But I do believe we are born with them. And so some people on our tic tock videos will be like, I think I have an abandonment wound but none of my parents ever died and I don't understand. I think maybe we're born with them. Maybe it's genetic, maybe it's learned maybe it's past life. In some cases, it could have been a small event in your life, like maybe you were left to cry it out in the crib, and you felt abandoned. And that's where it began. You know, maybe there's things that happen so unconsciously, that we don't know where they originate. But I do I agree with you and I do believe that we're we come into the world with them. And that's one of the reasons why we're on this planet is to recognize and learn to love and live with these wounds.
So one of the things that kind of when Anna and I first kind of discovered the primal wounds, and we were looking at ourselves, within them, we did we actually went through our first primal wound work before we started the podcast and even kind of recorded about it right. We both went through this process of like, really looking at ourselves and kind of going deeply into it. And it was in that process that we both had categorized ourselves as a primary primal wound, right? So Anna’s was abandonment and mine was rejection betrayal, right, so I kind of had like a mixture of the two. But it was so interesting, because it was a self-discovery process that helped us kind of recognize that we kind of have all of them and a lot of ways, right? In the sense that some of them are more dormant, some of them are deeper, some of them are more subconscious.
And so for me, my process of like understanding the primal wounds kind of was a process of going deeper and deeper into my body because I'm a very, I'm a person who likes to kind of have my head up in the clouds, you know, I kind of might like I said, again, my spirituality is like kind of always like wanting to go into the outer realms or the subtle realms or the imaginary realms, like all those kinds of other places that exists that we can travel to. Whereas it wasn't experiencing my body. So for me, my process of understanding the primal wounds and understanding that we have aspects of all five if we choose to use that as our kind of like door into our shadow, right, is that I was like, okay, so these are like shadow chakras, right? Like, they're almost like, if you were to say that, like, you know, we have obviously we have the, we have more than five chakras, but you know, starting at the throat, injustice tends to sit at the throat, right.
So this was all a self-discovery process in which I was like, oh, wow, okay, I can see how sitting in my throat, I, you know, I speak about in justices, right, it's all about you know, and so in a lot of ways, I first started out in injustice, because it was sitting right there at my throat, so I could talk about it. I could talk about how this didn't feel fair and this didn't feel whatever, you know. And then traveling down into the body, seeing that the hearts, the shadow chakra of the heart is rejection, right? Because it feels like a rejection of self. Right? Like when somebody you know, and it feels like rejection of love, right? When you're getting into that really, really deep part of yourself, it's like being rejected is saying you're not worthy of love. That's what it feels like, right either other people saying it or you saying it to yourself. And then going down into that solar plexus, that solar plexus is all about power, and betrayal is all about power. It's all about trying to control the situation so that you can make sure that you are the one who is preventing you know, breaches of trust, preventing pain from happening in your world in whatever way possible. And then going down into that second chakra that real place of, of what can be creativity, but we can also be codependence and that abandonment experience, right, like right down there, in that kind of fertile area in which you're able to create so much, but you're also able to experience abandonment. And then going down into the root. So the root of all things is that humiliation wound. So that shadow chakra is sitting right there in that that first chakra, which is so so deep for some people, they don't even see it, because it sits there, right? That's survival. Like, I'm ashamed to be a person, I'm ashamed to exist here or something along those lines and that's where you're experiencing that shadow chakra of humiliation and the root chakra.
Can you give an example of because I love that, I mean, I'm assuming that the one of the reasons it's good to know, maybe what your most prevalent primal wounds are, is so that you can work on healing them so you're not showing up in the world, you know, with codependent symptoms, etc, etc. So I'm thinking of, of like the abandonment wound. I know that, you know, that's the one I identify with the most and I think about, you know, things that happened when I was younger with my parents and, and that there are ways and I've done that, you know, worked on healing them. But then I think about the injustice wound. And I think about like, Let's take, for example, the Me Too movement when so many women were coming out with their stories of sexual assault or sexual violence and that could very well be a wound and you know, you can work on healing it but and maybe this is…
I know where you're going with this.
Like, how do you help someone heal these wounds when they're still going on in the world and like you and people still have to walk through the world where there are not only injustices happening to them, but they're watching injustices still happen. Like, is it… I mean, I can think of some things that are helping, I mean, we're all kind of doing it every single day of getting out of bed and doing our job. So but can you give us any sort of strategies that maybe you might work with clients with?
Well, yeah, first of all, Kristina is the one who works with clients. I actually don't do any coaching. But I just want to just before we even, we continue the conversation to mention the book. It's called Kill Your Wounds and Find Your True Self by Lisa Bourbeau and she's a French philosopher, and psychologist who came up with this blueprint of the five primal wound so I just wanted to just reference that before we continue.
We'll have that link in the show notes too. Thank you.
Perfect. And actually in her book, she only diagnoses the wound, she actually never goes into healing them which I think was a like a French translation error because the book actually does not talk about healing them and that's how the work with Kristina and I began with this was we were like what she just told us what we have and we don't know what to do with it right? So ya. That's actually how we came up with our own system for healing them but regarding injustice, so like the injustice wound is a very tricky wound because there is injustice in the world. There are social and justices, there are class injustices, gender injustices, privilege injustices. Like true injustice is happening in the world at all times across so many spectrums. So it's important to recognize that there's a difference between a true social injustice and emotional injustice.
The example I would give would be okay, like your boss, you're a woman and your boss is a man and he's hitting on you at work and making inappropriate suggestions, that's a true injustice of power, right? That's true injustice and you should act on it and your anger is totally justified. We're not talking about that when we talk about the injustice. Well, now, if you have the injustice wound, that's going to trigger you much, more than someone who's predominant, willing to say abandonment, right. So we want to make sure that people understand, like, if you find injustice is in the world, and you feel called to act on them, you know, and you feel passionate about them that's important, and beautiful, and go for it.
But the emotional injustice will be like, you know, an example would be interpersonal, like she missed my birthday party, so I'm not gonna go to hers, right like this. Like this tit for tat scorekeeping within relationships. Or, you know, like, for example, my mom died and that's not fair. That's not fair. It's not fair. It's not fair. Poor me. Injustice, people, people with a primary injustice don't often go into victim mentality. They're very in fact, they are one of the least likely of the primal predominant primal wounds to seek therapy or seek healing because they often think everyone else is to blame for their problem.
Sounds a little murdererish. Yeah, yeah,
Very victim, poor me. Everyone else is to blame. I'm always right. They're wrong. So that is more of the emotional story behind it. But people who are fighting for social causes, you know, they don't necessarily have injustice wounds right? You know, so yeah, I just wanted to point that out that there are true injustice in the world and we're not saying she'll your injustice wound and don't worry about, you know, school shooters, right? We're not saying that at all. We're talking about like the tit for tat that can happen between interpersonally.
Thank you for clarifying.
Yeah, yeah. And I can kind of add to that, too, is that ultimately, you know, in this kind of jumps a little bit to the healing aspect of this, but when Anna and I were first trying to kind of like, find our way through this and be like, okay, well, we have this primary wound, like, I have a primary injustice wound, or I have a primary abandonment wound, we were like, okay, well, what, where are we going with this? Like, what are we trying to do, because one of the things that we say a lot, is that our podcast is called The Spiritual Fix and our tagline is, ‘there's nothing to fix’, right? Like, fix your fix. Because… And we were just talking about this yesterday is that like, we've come to this realization that, that like through the work that we do that the podcast like prompts us to do that, like we you know, that that's really like we're driven to do so that we can have something to talk about, right? So that we can kind of…and also so that we can, like live our life in a more fully embodied way, is that we're starting to realize more and more, there's nothing to fix.
But back when we first started the primal wounds were like, well, how do we fix it? How do we heal it? How do we do it? You know, how do we kind of get, you know, get rid of it or get rid of the maladaptive behaviors that have come out of it? I mean, that's a totally valid motivation, right? Like, if you know that you're experiencing codependence and you know, that it's coming from this abandonment wound, then it's like, yeah, go for it, you know, like, let's, let's figure out how you can, how you can do this. But ultimately, kind of what ended up happening in that first round was that we started to realize that being externally referenced, right, so in terms of like, letting the world kind of put you in the washing machine, and you never kind of know what's going to be you know, you never know what the detergent is going to be like, is it going to be injustice today, is it going to be you know, my gonna have to see, you know, children being abandoned somewhere or am I going to have to see whatever, right? That is a really a really very kind of chaotic reference point in a lot of ways, right? It's unnecessary one, we live in a world we're not supposed to completely dissociate from it and avoid the realities of the world, but at the same time, if we can find steady ground within ourselves to be internally referenced, right? So kind of the same way what Anna saying but like, internally referenced being like, ultimately, I will never abandon myself right? Then then all of a sudden, you're not dependent on anything, right? It doesn't you know, you can see something and be triggered and it can give you access to those feelings that are locked up within the abandonment wound right in your subconscious and that will bring it to the surface.
But then the external like the outside world basically just becomes the kind of the stimulant right? It becomes it becomes a stimulant that brings up the stuff that already is sitting in your system and then you can say, I'm never going to abandon myself. And then you can act not from a place of your hole of like saying, well, I could be abandoned, I could be abandoned, I could be abandoned. I don't know what anyone's going to do. Right? I don't know. Because you can't control other people. You can't control the outside world. Right? So if you if you change that reference in which you know that you can never abandon yourself, then you're acting from your wholeness from your W-H-O-L-E-N-E-S-S, right, and not from not from a place of fear and trying to change your control, or, you know, shoring yourself up against the outside world, because the outside world is always going to deliver to you exactly what you probably don't want it to, in some ways, you know? It's not going to be fair, it's not going to be just at this point. So yeah.
Yeah, like, one thing I love about the wounds, and then I really want to know about your experience with them, Andrea is, like for each and every wound, they create a want and that want creates a mask. And behind all of that, is the exact opposite. So what I want to say for like, is like the abandonment wound, what they really, really want is to not be abandoned. So they put on this mask of codependency and they become in dispensable and amazing, so no one will ever leave them and they over give and overperform and swallow their own needs, because their deep down one is not to be abandoned. And behind that is the opposite, which is they need to never abandon themselves, right. And so same for all of them for rejection wounds. So the rejection wound wants not to be rejected and so they create the mask of the fugitive so they run away from rejection, and they run away from commitment, and they run away from risk to protect themselves from rejection.
And on the other side of that the exact opposite of their want, which is to not be rejected is that they must learn to not reject themselves, right? And Eleanor Roosevelt, I love she said, she said something like, ‘no one can actually reject you without you giving them permission’, you know. So ultimately, if you don't reject yourself, no one can actually reject you. And in all three of the you know, the other three, obviously, like follow the same sequence. Whatever it is that you're looking for, you're wanting to create the mask to prevent it from happening. But on the other side of it, is you have to come to give it to yourself, that thing that you're wanting from others. So in a way, you're not fixing anything, you're just coming to recognize that the thing you're always seeking, and creating all these maladaptive strategies to prevent is like, ultimately, the thing to just give yourself and when you give it to yourself, you stop needing to do all these other things like thinking that codependency is the problem. It's not. It's a symptom of the self-abandonment and running away and addiction. You think that's the problem. It's not it's a self-medication for your own fear of self-rejection. So anyways, it's just beautiful, deep work. So I was wondering, like when you watch the TikTok’s, or listen to the episodes, which one which were your primal, primal primary ones, like which one resonated with you the most and what have you seen since that?
Yeah, I there was definitely a couple that jumped out at me and I was thinking like, oh, can we only pick like one or two and then I think you talked about that, like, no, we tend to have, you know, dip our toes and all of them, but there are some that are more dominant than others. It's not like oh, no, I'm not bothered at all by humiliation and injustice. No, I think it's all of them.
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But I want to say something really quick that you touched on. It's something that for I felt like it followed me for years, years ago in my personal development journey. And it's that quote from Eleanor Roosevelt is like one of my least favorite. I’m going to tell you why. Because I think it's both. I think it's… there…and there's different versions of it. It's like the whole, like, no one can make you feel inferior without your consent. Yeah, and I remember thinking for so long, so I'm like, so it's my fault so it's my fault, that someone made me feel inferior even though their behavior was shit. And what I came to realize, probably a therapist walked me through this is that it's both. That other people's behavior can be absolute crap and it's up to me to set the boundaries. And the reason I want to mention it is because I have struggled so long with dichotomous thinking, and I know a lot of my listeners do as well, like, it's all or nothing. Either somebody else is totally in charge of how I feel, or I'm totally in charge of how I feel, and someone else's behavior doesn't matter at all. It's like, well, no, it's both. And anyway, I just wanted to say that because every time even now I hear her name. I'm like, oh, God damn you Eleanor.
I love that. I love that you said that because it's totally a thing we all do, which is like that spiritual bypass see thing. I think it's both true on the apparent level, like we do live in a third dimensional reality where other people's opinions and behavior affect us. And we also live in the fifth dimension where, you know, ultimately, we are responsible for how we feel, and no one can touch us, right? It's both like, we live in both. And to always live in the fifth dimension means that you're going to ignore the third dimension, which I often do, and then I don't make proper boundaries, because I'm seeing the best in others. And, oh, that person was an asshole to me, but it's just because they have an unresolved betrayal.
That’s self-abandonment, that's an example of self-abandonment.
Yeah, exactly. Total spiritual bypass the behavior and bullshit. So like, yeah, the Eleanor Roosevelt, quote, can hit you the wrong way in the third dimension, I totally get that and, and I it's something that I also struggle with, I struggle with it so much is like, is, you know, I just had like a psychic channeling session with someone like, and they were like, these guides were just like, you're so spiritually bypassing because you're constantly the best in others. And like, you know, and it's like true, like, no, like, on the apparent level, this person might have made done some behavior that makes you feel inferior so make boundaries or cut them out or do what you need to do. So like, yeah, it's not giving. Yeah, like, I don't think we need to, like give everybody the carte blanche to treat us how they wish, because ultimately, I'm responsible for how I feel but on the ultimate level, we are responsible to, you know, like, it's, yeah, it's so yeah, it's a tricky one.
It's so tricky. It is tricky. And I love these conversations where we kind of dig deeper. Okay, so mine is abandonment. And like, no one is surprised listening to this. Listen to my podcasts, which I think like just is that super common for womenor is it like a mixed gender type of thing?
I think that there are probably predominant ones for depending on where you identify on the spectrum. Like, in fact, when we first did it, we actually were like, is this more of a masculine energy, and this is more of a feminine energy? And so we definitely, when we kind of, we never really like firmed that up. But when we were doing that, we were saying that abandonment was more feminine in nature, just simply because of the nature of it. It's using giving, to and community building and all those kinds of things that codependents can look like in order to avoid, you know, in order to keep connections even if they aren't healthy.
Right. Well, and this is what I think Anna, you were talking in the beginning of the show about it you know, what, what the what the abandonment wound how it manifests sort of in our life and, and that ties in very beautifully with my last book that I wrote Make Some Noise. I talk about how a lot of the behaviors that we do that we struggle with that many women come to personal development to help, whether it's therapy or you know, personal development podcasts, like the people pleasing the perfectionism, the overachieving, that's because we were raised that way. Like in this culture in a patriarchal culture, like, our value was put on how flexible and accommodating and helpful and nurturing can you be. That's, that's what makes us quote, unquote, good women and good girls. And so I just wanted to kind of, you know, put that in everyone's pocket.
Mine, for sure, is abandonment. And I think what I want to touch on the most is when…Tthe term self-abandonment, and I was speaking at an event over the weekend in Orlando, and it came up a couple of times with the speakers. And I think it's a term that can get a little, like, what does that mean? And I would love to spend a couple of minutes talking about what self-abandonment looks like and I can just for just a short anecdote, like what it just took me a long time to figure out this was not helpful behavior to myself, self-abandonment, for me looks like completely ignoring my intuition at 19. That told me, you probably should break up with this guy that you've been dating for a couple years who is not for you. And I ended up marrying him instead. My intuition told me he's probably cheating on you, you need to leave the marriage and I didn't, and it ended up completely blowing up in my face. He wasn't like cheating on me. And then on a first date with this other guy, my intuition was like, something's not right. He ended up being a con artist. Like it just all this ignoring of my intuition, as well as exactly what you were saying, like giving people so much of the benefit of the doubt making excuses for other people, and wanting to be…not that I wanted to be a good person, I wanted to look like a good person that was more important. I wanted to be perceived, and this actually coincides with shame because I do shame work. I'm trained and certified in the work of the methodology of Dr. Brené. Brown, and it's module 10, where it's called Ideal Identities and Triggers. Like we all have these ways that we don't want to be perceived by others and ways that we ideally want to be perceived by others. It's just part of the human experience. There's nothing wrong with us. It's a method of survival. But yeah, I wanted to be perceived as a good person. I wanted people to like me. Who doesn't? So I would bend myself into a pretzel, to try to morph myself into someone that I thought would be liked and loved, and that no one would leave. And I ended up a fucking disaster. And my whole life fell apart at 31 and I was like, well, I guess I need to dig myself out of this hole. That was like 15 years ago, and that what I've noticed is like that abandonment wound has fucked me sideways.
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, you know, it's so interesting how the different forms of it show up. So mine shows up like a form of what we call rescuing. So we talk about in the second season of the podcast, we talk about the Drama Triangle, which has three different roles that people constantly flip between the victim, the rescuer, and the persecutor, the abuser. And codependent people are so good at rescuing. It's just not even…
Let me help other people with their problems so I don't have to deal with mine. That was like my life motto.
That's it. That's exactly and it looks like a hero. Yeah, you look like a hero. And so I can't tell you how many people who I who are doing the work right now and I kind of asked them I'm just like, are they're telling me like, this is what I want to do and they're just like, I want to help others and I'm like, You got to you got to create the tree that has the shade if you really want to help others, right? Because otherwise everyone's just going to be projecting onto everybody else this need to help but it's actually your yourself. It's your parts and all the things inside of you that are saying help me, help me. Don't go rescue anybody else right now. Don't self-abandon and just go out into the world and be like, oh, yeah, this is the thing.
And my former, my most like kind of it was it was a combination of rescuing and there was also overachieving, right. So it was also being hyper productive, always thinking that I was the only one who could do it, always thinking that I was the one who like I would just I would go into these periods where I would just work and work and work and work and I would do and I would pick up everything and it would be everything for everybody. And then I would just collapse right? Which is what we kind of call the typical Drama Triangle serrated like thing that happens is you rescue your rescue rescue, and then you have a really good excuse to just be like, oh, everyone's so much of me and I've done so much please. Now I'm the victim or you go into that. You guys haven't done anything. Yeah, why are you not doing anything so then you can easily fall into becoming the abuser or the victim in that case. And so a lot of self-abandonment follows that same kind of pattern.
I think like when we're talking about the feminine and masculine part of this is, you know, Robin Norwood in her book Women Who Love Too Much says that like when codependence are usually women, but they can be men, but it is exactly because of our patriarchal culture. And I think that like the male version of abandonment or their masculine side of it would be the betrayal wound because they're very, like demanding and clear with our manipulation, not manipulation with their controlling but like on the but people with abandonment wound primarily, we're very sneaky with how we manipulate by doing nice, like, covert, I'm gonna rescue you so then when I need to be rescued, I've got you know, money in the bank kind of thing, you know? I'm gonna withdraw. Yeah, it's fascinating.
I don't know, have you guys seen the self-abandonment cycle like drawn out on paper? Probably, yes. Probably. That was me to a tee it was like, I don't want to be abandoned. So I'm going to overperform and over give and be the perfect person and have a Rolodex of personalities that I can pull up, you know, I can be the funny person and I can be the cool person and the spiritual person and then like, I'll just be give, give, give and do do do for everyone else and then when I slowly like, feel like my bucket is drained, or you know, or like in the love tank, my love tank isn't being full, then to just kind of like crumble and fall and turn into the victim and, and cry and be like, it's not fair, you're not pulling your end of the relationship, I'm doing it all doing it all and then having extreme remorse and guilt for my outbursts, because I've been playing the role of perfect person this whole time and here I am acting like a total child throwing a tantrum.
And then that guilt reinforces the self-abandonment, because now it's like, well, I acted like a total baby here so now I need to like pick myself up and be even better than I was before so that they will leave me because I've now shown myself to be vulnerable and messy. And then the cycle begins all over again. That was like me doing it to a tee, you know? And like every little spiritual bypass a thing to justify why they weren't giving, and why I was so amazing and I should just keep giving more and no giving us some altruistic and this and that and then. And it just like oh my god, it's amazing how we can use fifth dimensional thinking to totally fucked ourselves up and the third dimension.
Right. It's this interesting dance and Okay, yeah, so I just Googled examples, or sorry, the self-abandonment cycle. And we'll link to that in the show notes. There's several different sort of infographics about it. And this is, it's, pretty much everything I wrote about and How To Stop Feeling Like Shit and so when I wrote that, I didn't know that that was like the list, there's 14 habits, that's basically the list of self-abandonment. And, you know, I write books because like I've experienced, what's going on. And, and it's also directly related to shame work, you know, we're so afraid of dropping into shame that we do all of these things that we completely abandon ourselves.
And so I want to take a moment too to talk about, like, what are the what are some examples of, of not abandoning yourself, like being true to yourself? And I know for sure, it's knowing and very much being clear and understanding what your values are. And I think when you and that's what I talked about How To Stop Feeling Like Shit. It's the very last chapter and I almost made it the first chapter because I wanted to make sure people saw it. But it's one of those things where God, if you know what your values are, like, most likely you're going to have to hold your feet to the fire and set boundaries and have hard conversations and walk away from certain relationships. So can you talk about some additional examples of what is the opposite of self-abandonment?
Well, in episode two of season four of our podcasts, we interviewed artists Isadora Stowe and we actually talk about how the antithesis of self-abandonment is art and creation because it's when you're giving yourself a voice. So I would say that you writing your books, and you creating this podcast is a form of you, your self-expression, your celebration of your beliefs and your values. And you're creating, right that is like the antithesis of self-abandonment. So we talk a lot in that episode about how giving your art like whatever art maybe like for me, it's cooking, it's creating beautiful meals. You know, for Kristina, it's making a garden or painting you know, and just kind of giving voice to self-expression and creativity is one of the most beautiful ways dancing like you know, to kind of celebrate who you are and your unique expression.
Exactly. And that kind of also goes back to the shadow chakras that we're talking about right if the abandonment wound sits in the second chakra. The second chakra It is all about creativity and expression. Right? So in a lot of it is…
That's kind of like down in your womb area, right?
Yeah, exactly. It's yeah, it's like, right. Yeah, it's right above… It's like six inches above the top of your tailbone basically. And it's all about creativity expression, right? So when your second chakra is fully expressing itself, it's like, hey, here I am, this is this is who I am, and I'm okay to be who I am and I'm okay to be flawed. And I'm okay to appear not perfect. And I'm okay because I fully accept myself and know that I can come into the world safely because I keep myself safe. I create the boundaries I take, you know, I take the steps that are necessary to pull the people who hurt me. I honor my hurt. I honor my pain and upset and by not keeping people in my life who are who are going to going to treat me in a certain way.
And the same thing goes for all the rest of the, for all the rest of the wounds. You could you could you can use that same process for basically saying that rejection sits in the heart chakra. So really the self-love and how are you expressing your self-love? And how are you allowing yourself to show up as a person and have an identity is kind of the antithesis of self rejection.
Yeah, I love that. Thank you for those answers. And it's like, no pun intended, but like broad brushstrokes of what it can look like. I could ask you like 17 more questions, but we are out of time. And I would love for you to tell us where people can find you. We will have your your Tiktok and your website link in the show notes as well as the other things that we mentioned. But I know you have a podcast too. And where else?
Kristina gives private sessions. I don't. I'm too busy. I admire her ability to do that. So Kristina, that's on our website. And yeah, we have our seasons, and they kind of go in order, like the first season is all about the primal wounds, because we feel like that's a really good entry point for people because we can all universally identify with these, and we can see them in others, right. And then our second season goes into the Drama Triangle, which is more is more like how the primal wounds interact with other people. And then the third season, we talked a lot about tantra, which is basically the spirituality of it of everything, you know, it's not just sex, it's about enjoying all that life has to offer. And then this season, we're really talking about art, creativity, expansion, things like that. So yeah, our podcast is a great way to listen to us and or the TikTok or the summaries.
Exactly. Yeah. And for me, you can, for anyone who's interested in doing a reading with me, my website is KrisWiltsee.com. So K-R-I-S-W-I-L-T-S-E-E.com, for anyone who wants sessions, because what I find is that a lot of the people I've talked to are people who are in the end of the podcast, they're into this work already, we have a common language. And so it's kind of an extension of what we do in the podcast, right? So it's looking at shadow work, it's looking at the potential of where you're going, and, and all that. So yeah, those are all the resources that we have.
Thank you so much. This has been so insightful and helpful, and I've loved having this conversation. And listeners, thank you so much for your time, I value your time and you so very much. And remember, it's our life's journey to make ourselves better humans and our life's responsibility to make the world a better place. Bye for now.
Hi there, swinging back by to say one more thing. You know, I'm always giving advice over here on the show and on social media. And a couple of those things is that I'm always telling you to ask for what you want, be clear about it, and also ask for help. So I am taking a dose of my own medicine. And I'm going to do that right now. It would be the absolute best and mean the world to me. If you reviewed and subscribed to this show, Make Some Noise Podcast on whatever podcast platform of your choice. And even more importantly, it would matter so much if you shared this show. Sharing the show is one of the few ways the podcast can grow. And that also gives more women an opportunity to make some noise in their lives. You can do that by taking a screenshot when you're listening on your phone and sharing it in your Instagram or Facebook stories. If you're on Instagram you can tag me @HeyAndreaOwen and I try my best to always re share those and give you a quick thank you DM and also you can tell your friends and family about it. Tell them what you learned. Tell them a really awesome guest that you found on the show that you started following. Whatever it is I appreciate so much for sharing about this show.