*Before we jump into today’s episode, I want to remind you that we have a few spots left for The Daring Way retreat and that registration closes August 19th!*

Sarajane Case is on the show this week to talk about the enneagram and self-care. If you’ve heard people talk about enneagram or reference their enneagram type and were curious what it all means – this episode breaks it all down. We also explore how the enneagram encourages growth, discuss productivity, as well as, define some ways to honor your strengths. 

Sarajane is an author, podcaster, and speaker who uses the enneagram to help people find a creative balance between self-care and productivity. 

We cover:

  • Enneagram: what it is, the nine types, and why it is important to know your type (4:43)
  • How the enneagram encourages growth through curiosity and compassion vs. discipline and restriction (11:20)
  • Rest: The true purpose of productivity is the path to rest not the opportunity to produce more (23:20)
  • Why it’s important to have a loving, tender, and intimate relationship with yourself (27:37)
  • Sarajane talks about “The honest method,” which helps you honor your strengths, explore your contribution to relationships, and so much more (30:38)

Sarajane’s website
Sarajane on Instagram
Honest Enneagram
The Daring Way™ Retreat! (registration closes 8/19!)
Enneagram Institute

Book recommendations:
You know how I love a good personal development book, right? I’ve compiled a list of book recommendations, as mentioned in past episodes. Check out these amazing book recommendations here. Happy reading!


Sarajane Case is an author, podcaster and speaker based out of Asheville, NC. She works with the enneagram to help people find a creative balance between self-care and productivity so they feel great about how they spend their time.

Right-click to download the .mp3



Sarajane  00:00
When we approach them from a place of curiosity and a place of compassion, well then we can meet those same goals with more ease and with more self-confidence and less shame than when we enter into that discipline mindset, where it's like, well, if I mess up on Monday, then I'm a failure on Tuesday. Whereas we’re these like living breathing dynamic beings who have passions and flaws and beautiful intricacies that deserve to be heard and listened to and valued.

Andrea  00:32
You're listening to Make Some Noise Podcast episode number 468 with guest Sarahjane Case.

Welcome to Make Some Noise Podcast, your guide for strategies, tools and insight to empower yourself. I'm your host, Andrea Owen, global speaker, entrepreneur, life coach since 2007, and author of three books that have been translated into 18 languages and are available in 22 countries. Each week, I'll bring you a guest or a lesson that will help you maximize unshakable confidence, master resilience and make some noise in your life. You ready? Let's go.

Hey, everyone, welcome to another episode of the podcast, I'm so glad that you're her. I will not sing for you. Sometimes I am in such a good mood, I feel like it and I've spent the entire morning singing to my dog. But I won't do that for you. I won't. But I will tell you that registration closes on August 19 2022, in case you're listening to this way into the future, for my Daring Way retreat, and we have a couple spots open and I want to make it quick. And I was thinking before we started recording, who is this for? I need to tell them if they're on the fence, if you hear yourself in any of these, then I want you to head on over to the the info page. It's AndreaOwen.com/retreat. Okay, who is this daring way retreat for that I'm hosting in Asheville, North Carolina in September. It's for anyone who's struggled with what to do with all of this information that you hear on the podcast. I mean, we're not going to go over all of the information that you've heard on 400 and something episodes. But we're gonna go over a little bit of it, okay? It's for anyone who loves Brené Brown's work and you like her as a person and that you also like me, you don't have to love me, you can if you want, but just that you like me, I figured you do if you listen to this podcast. Alright, number three. It's for anyone who would like a process of how to implement work that they learn, you know, at retreats and things like that, when you go home. It's a process that I'm going to teach you. Number four. For anyone who struggles to open up and be vulnerable. I'm not gonna force you into it, but it's sort of like baby steps in a place that I have curated with a bunch of other amazing women with you. Okay. And then the last number five. The Daring Way retreat is for anyone who needs a frickin break from their life. Honestly, who doesn't? You don't have to cook when you're there. I'm having it catered. And even if you have dietary restrictions, come on over. We've got you covered. You don't have to make your bed if you don't want to. You don't have to get anybody a snack except yourself. You don't have to answer anybody's major inquiries via email from your boss or your coworkers. You don't have to do any of that. It's a nice little break. Beautiful scenery, beautiful house, amazing food, amazing people amazing work. AndreaOwen.com/retreat. Registration closes soon, y'all.

Okay, I have an amazing podcast episode per huge for you today. I was on Sarajane's podcast, and I liked her so much, I said you need to come and meet my people, you need to come and tell them about your work. So that's what we're doing. We're still in the spirituality slash creativity, and I just wanted to give you a mishmash of all these different topics as they pertain to spirituality and creativity. So let me tell you a little bit about her. Sarajane Case is an author, podcaster and speaker based out of coincidentally, Asheville, North Carolina. She works with the Enneagram to help people find a creative balance between self-care and productivity so they feel great about how they spend their time. So without further ado, here is Sarajane.

Sarajane, thank you so much for being here.

Sarajane  04:40
Yes, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited.

Andrea  04:43
I'm always excited to talk about the Enneagram. But and we're going to talk about other topics as well. But before we actually jump into any of those questions, I've had a couple of guests on before that I've talked about it. I haven't had anyone come on and just kind of give a brief overview of all nine types. So for people who do have never taken the test before or maybe took it a long time ago and forgot what type they are, can you kind of kind of walk us through just like a general, here's a description of the nine types?

Sarajane  05:10
Yeah, so I like to think of the types as who we thought we had to be our whole lives. So it's kind of like this character we thought we had to play. And so I'll kind of give you the brief like, this is what you think you have to be based off of the number. So for type ones, they believe they have to be morally perfect. Type twos believe they have to be lovable or likeable. Type threes believe they have to be successful. Type fours believe they have to find their significance. Type fives believe they have to be informed. Type sixes believe they have to be loyal and skeptical and careful and stable and safe. And type sevens believe they have to be satisfied. Type eights believe they have to be strong, that only the strong survive. And type nines believe they have to be easy to get along with.

Andrea  05:57
Oh, my gosh, I've never heard it explained that way.

Sarajane  06:01
Yeah, I mean, I think it helps me a lot with my Enneagram work to consider that oh, I thought I had to be this. Like I thought my whole life I had to be this. And so that doesn't mean that it's not sometimes a good thing, but I don't have to be it all the time. I can be other things.

Andrea  06:17
And so Well, it's funny, my husband has never taken the test and I just have nothing against it, I keep forgetting to like have him sit down because it's you know, it's not just a few questions or something. It's not just like a 10 question quiz on Buzzfeed or something. But you said the six was the one who needs to be what was it like safe, secure prepared?

Sarajane  06:40
Yeah, they're the ones I gave like all the words to loyal but skeptical, and safe and supportive.

Andrea  06:46
That is Mr. Jason Owen right there. Okay, so now I know what he has. And I know it's hard to you know, and you can't identify exactly just based on that short description. And I'm sure there's people listening who saw parts of themselves and a handful of them. So when people get the results of the test, is it usually like one stands out and like hands down that's you or is it a combination? How did the point how does the point system work?

Sarajane  07:10
Yeah, so sometimes when you take the test, it's pretty common to miss type on the test, because it's like 40 to 50% accurate generally. Oftentimes, because we're not always aware of our own motivations. And so when you get the test, I highly recommend the top three answers that you get you read the descriptions, what on whatever website you're taking your test on. And when you read the description, you're looking for a sensation of like, someone has followed me around my entire life. Like who was watching me and documenting what I've done. And I will tell you, if I had taken this advice, I would have known my type the day I took the test. When I took the test, I got a type two. I read my husband's result, which was type seven, and I thought who read my journals and wrote them down, and then continued to believe I was a type two and try and figure out when I realized I wasn't a type two. It took me like two years to come back to type seven. So if you have that sensation of like, wow, this thing really seems to know me intimately. That's your type.

Andrea  08:16
Okay. Okay, because I remember I think I've mentioned this, we had someone else on the show, at least a year ago, I think, and I've taken the Enneagram three times. And the first two times, I was a clear, like, eight was the winner as like, you know, that was my type. But then when I took it, I think in 2020, or 2021, I tied with seven, which was interesting to me. So I'm like, even seven and eight. Which sevens always been likye my second one that's like, what is it the enthusiast? Yeah, what is it?

Sarajane  08:45

Andrea  08:47
Enthusiast. Thank you. I was gonna say the enthusiasmist, and I'm like, that's not the right word. We're getting creative. enthusiasts. Yes and a and I was sort of joking with someone and I said, I think maybe just because I've gotten older and I'm just more tired. That that's why I've scaled back on the eight, which is, what are we the challenger? Yeah, yeah, I'm just a little tired.

Sarajane  09:13
Like, I really don't…have a good time.

Andrea  09:15
I just want to have a good time and not be so strong and challenging. And alsowhat was really strong was the three what is that?

Sarajane  09:25
The achiever. Yeah. And what's interesting about that is that those are all three, the assertive types are all action oriented, future oriented. So no matter what type, you know, is your dominant, you're action oriented.

Andrea  09:35
That's interesting. I have a good feeling there's a decent amount of threes that are listening to this because I have a lot of high achieving women in my community. Well, I think you've kind of explained it a little bit, but why is it important? Why do you feel in your professional opinion that it's important to know your type?

Sarajane  09:52
Yeah, so you know, I think when we understand our Enneagram type, we're able to understand where we're overworking in our life. So when we think about these high achieving women, you think about how, you know, we're used to striving. Striving is easy like that comes naturally to us. So when we're trying to undo this like striving mentality, or this sense of like, I have to constantly be doing and doing understanding, like, sometimes our strength is the exact other end of the spectrum to the things that are causing us to suffer. So, yes, high achievers are amazing at getting things done, they're amazing at being efficient, they're amazing at like looking for networking opportunities, and at the same time, they don't always listen to their heart, they don't always listen to how they feel, they might ignore their bodily needs, all in sacrifice for that end goal. But then when they get the goal, right, they might recognize at that moment, it doesn't feel the way I thought it would feel. I thought I would feel better when I got here. And so a lot of times, you know, it can come back to what if we focus on how I feel, and setting goals based off of that, versus setting goals based off of what I want to achieve. So, and you know, every single number is going to have its own version of that. So that's really specific to threes. But in general, right, it's like that strength that we have helps to recognize it, and then also recognize the shadow side of it.

Andrea  11:20
Wow, it's so interesting to me. The whole Enneagram fascinates me and how people use it in so many different aspects of their life, you know, in their spirituality, with their productivity with their goals and their relationships. And I every time I talk to someone who's an expert in it they seem to open up another door around it that I have never heard of before.

Well, how do you use Enneagram in in your work? So specifically, how can Enneagram encourage growth through you know what you say like curiosity and compassion versus discipline and restriction. It’s like one of my favorite topics.

Sarajane  12:01
It is. You know, I think for a long time, we've been trained to approach growth through this like kind of rigid, disciplinarian mindset of like, just, you know, that Nike phrase, like, just do it. So we kind of wake up every day, and we're like, I'm just gonna do it. And instead of really looking at the data, of what's not working for us, what's kind of preventing us from doing the things we want to be doing, and where we're, you know, kind of just having a hard time, right? And so if we can approach things with curiosity, and ask ourselves better questions, which I think the Enneagram helps us to do, then we can get to our results in a more gentle fashion and in a way that does less harm to ourselves over the long term.

And so I'll talk about my type, when I think about this. And you know, I'm a type seven. Type sevens were amazing at coming up with ideas. were amazing at starting projects, were great to have in a brainstorming room, we are good with people, we pick up on content really fast. But we give up more quickly, we're more likely to move on to the next thing when we're really excited about something else, when things are hard, we wonder if we've like, ruined our lives, you know, like, like, a bad day feels like, oh, no, like this is a bad life. So I've learned to really harness those skills to say, okay, I'm really good at starting things, who can I get in my team to finish them, and where am I limiting my access to success because I am uncomfortable with discomfort.

Because when we remember what I think I have to be as satisfied, then I can remember I get to be more than that I'm allowed to be unsatisfied. It's okay for me to have a moment that doesn't feel perfect to me. And I can breeze through that and get on to the next day. So a practical solution for this when I kind of look at the data is short term deadlines. So meaning I commit to following through with this project for six months, no matter how it feels, in that six months, I will continue to go. And then at the end of that six months, I can reevaluate from a non-emotional place. Now, I say that and I want to say eights have the opposite problem, right? As you will push yourself past your limitations believing you have no limits. And, you know, follow through with a project into your own detriment. And so you have kind of the opposite need in terms of getting curious. It's where am I restricting my access to care?

Andrea  14:37
All day every day. Yeah. Just side note, it's like kind of a combination. It really depends on the project. Sometimes I will I will push through especially if it's a competition involved or if I'm like trying to prove it to someone else, which is dumb. I've come a long way from that person, but also I sort of laughed when you said you know sevens are great starters but poor follow through. I have really poor follow through. And thank goodness, I've gotten to a place in my career where I have an amazing team that knows this about me. And will always like, are you sure you want to start that idea? Like, here's all the work involved? I'm like, nevermind. But it's good to know. I mean, even if nothing else, your personality and how you work.

Sarajane  15:21
Well, you said you have a seven, you probably have a seven wing, I have an eight wing. So sometimes I'm really good at follow through. So those two things kind of come together and create its own little recipe.

Andrea  15:31
Yeah. And it's interesting, I think it and maybe, you know, you tell me like, I think sometimes it just depends. It depends on the thing. If it's something that I love doing, then I will take control of it, I will follow through and it's, it's gonna be a damn good time. In my former family, I was always in charge of parties and, I know no one's probably surprised about that. And like the decor and the games and the music, and like, as long as it was a lot of work, and research involved and all those things. But as long as it involves people having a good time, and myself, then I will follow through, I will be a great team leader. I should have been, I mean, if this whole life coaching and author thing doesn't work out, I wouldn't be a great not like an event planner, or a party planner, but like a party planner slash emcee like, that's what I would be really good at is getting people like on the dance floor and… Tiffany Haddish did that, by the way. People get paid to do that you get paid to like pump up the crowd. Anyway, I digress.

Sarajane  16:39
But you were reevaluating your entire life plan.

Andrea  16:42
I know. I know. Sorry. Everybody got a little off track there. But I, you mentioned we talked a little bit about discipline and I'm curious what you think about this, because I remember I worked with a client a few years ago and we were doing her values and she said that discipline was one of her values and she had sort of gotten off track with her workout regimen and previously was like a fitness instructor and in that whole world and, and just my spidey senses kind of went off and so I just started to ask questions. I don't I don't make assumption, I asked a lot of questions. And as it turned out, that was something that she put a value on, because she thought that that would bring her credibility that that would bring her accolades and applause like, oh, look how hard you work. You're so disciplined with your diet and your exercise, and, and all of these things. And so it's interesting that, and this is, you know, maybe indirectly related to the Enneagram. I think just, maybe we're opening up a can of worms here. When I'm talking about discipline, and living in a capitalistic culture and society, and I think for women, particularly, we are valued for our productivity. We are valued, like the more we can get things done, whether it's in our career, whether we are mothers, whether it's within, you know, our teams at work, or whatever. Just side note for anyone who's feeling like they need to be more disciplined. Maybe what you need is rest.

Sarajane  18:17
Yes. And you know, I think our society loves a disciplined woman, because they love to control women. Right?

Andrea  18:24
Tell me more about that.

Sarajane  18:26
Yeah, as long as we feel ashamed of letting ourselves enjoy life, and feeling free and being wild and taking risks and putting ourselves out there we're staying as small as physically possible, emotionally possible, mentally possible. We're keeping ourselves in these like really tight constraints. That's very convenient for the patriarchy. Whereas if we approach ourselves with compassion, and release shame, and we can work toward these things that we want, it doesn't mean we don't have goals, we don't have high expectations, or ourselves or even not even high expectations, but just ambitions. When we approach them from a place of curiosity and a place of compassion, well, then we can meet those same goals with more ease and with more self-confidence, and less shame than when we when we enter into that discipline mindset where it's like, well if I mess up on Monday, then I'm a failure on Tuesday, and I have to overcompensate and I have to continue to restrict and restrict and restrict until who I am in the core of my being no longer exists. And I'm now just like a list of things that I failed or succeeded at. Whereas were these like living breathing dynamic beings who have passions and flaws and beautiful intricacies that deserve to be heard and listened to and valued.

Andrea  19:49
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Talk to us about ways that women can invoke rest when they feel like they need to go go go. Because I feel like that bridge is for many a giant uphill battle of okay, but I still have all these things to do and they need to get done and you're telling me I need to rest and then like laughter ensues. So can you talk a little bit of a more about that?

Sarajane  23:20
Yeah, so you know, the example I give in my book is a type nine. So one of the words that gets put on to type nines a lot is lazy, quote unquote. And I am not comfortable with that language. I much prefer to like let's get into this. So when we look at it through the path of discipline, it looks like I watch more TV than I would like to which means I'm lazy. I should wake up at 5am tomorrow and go workout if I were driven and that's what I would do. So then the next morning, when that alarm goes off, they hit snooze and they miss their workout and that reinforces the concept of like, I'm so lazy. It says to me like, oh, I'm a failure. I'm so lazy. Whereas the path of curiosity goes, I watch more TV than I would like to. Why do I watch TV? I'm too tired to do anything else. Well, why am I so tired? I spent all day thinking about what others needed, and then trying to make them happy. So then we can go well, what would it feel like if tomorrow I did my best to not give all of my energy away to other people. So then we're actually getting into the core of like, where's this lack of energy coming from not I'm bad, I'm lazy.

Andrea  24:30
Right. So you're actually looking at the root of the problem versus thinking that you are the problem.

Sarajane  24:36
Yeah, yeah and trying to like control ourselves enough to make it go away.

Andrea  24:40
Mm hmm. Interesting. So I think I feel like I've mentioned this on the podcast before so apologies everyone if you've heard me talk about this. But I was taking a class on a few different topics and there was four different topics on like habits and productivity and happiness and it was about the brain science, which I love to nerd out on that it's so interesting to me, but the teacher was it he was a man, and he was, you know, he was heterosexual, he's married to a woman, they had a couple kids, and so I'm trying to be forgiving, but he was talking about the research has shown that the most brain draining activity, like the mental thing that we do, that causes our battery, you know, quote, unquote, to drain so quickly, is decision making, and the constant organizing of tasks and people. And it's basically the thing that women tend to do the most up and I'm listening to this, and I'm like, oh. I actually, like sent him an email and I'm like, I knew it would be so great if you just acknowledged that this is typically not that men don't struggle with that too, nut for women, that that mental load is rough sometimes. And so I just want to wanted to acknowledge that I think we really underestimate how exhausting that really is. And that many times our exhaustion can manifest as being short with people, being impatient with our children or our co workers or friends. Raises hand in experience.

Sarajane  26:28
Yeah, well, and you know, this way that we're trained to focus on management of the household, and then adding on our career to that, we're going to take nine different approaches to that, right? Like when we think about the Enneagram, we're all going to do it for nine different reasons. You know, as a seven, I'm scared that I'm not going to have the most satisfying, beautiful life that I could possibly imagine for myself and so if I slack, then I'm going to live an unsatisfied lifestyle. Whereas a one is going to think there's like a moral aspect to it, like I'm morally failing at this. Threes are going to be worried about not being seen as successful. So we have like these nine unique ways that we kind of latch on to obligations that are handed to us by the patriarchal society. And yeah, it's exhausting.

Andrea  27:14
Feel like eights want to do all of the things because they don't want to hand over control, because somebody else is going to not do it as well as they do. Is that fair?

Sarajane  27:22
Yeah. And I think sometimes to the messages we send to eights is like, you can't be weak, you can't ask for help, because that would make you weak, and therefore you're not strong, which means you're not doing the thing you're supposed to be doing. You're failing where all we expect you to play.

Andrea  27:37
Right, exactly. Well, can you talk to us about practical things that someone could do to have like a loving and tender relationship with themselves?

Sarajane  27:51
Oh, yes, I would love to. The first thing I think about is just asking yourself more questions instead of telling yourself stories. So I think a lot of times, we're gonna get caught up usually when it comes to our feelings. We have kind of one or two camps. We're either going to believe everything that our feelings have to tell us meaning, if I'm lonely, then everyone must hate me, and I must be destined to be alone forever, or we're going to invalidate our feelings to the degree that we ignore them, or we try to numb them or try to run away from them when we say, I'm feeling lonely, buck up, kiddo. Like, get it together, you know, make yourself happy or figure a way out of the situation.

And the hope that I would have, by kind of creating a space where you ask yourself more questions, is that your feelings have a place of the table, right? Your feelings get to be felt, but they don't control the way that you engage. So your feelings aren't facts, right? The story that your feelings are telling you are not facts, but they are information as to what you want, where you're hurting, where you've been hurt before. And so you can feel them, and then we can move on from there without listening to the stories they’re telling us. So I think that's the first one, right? It's like, removing the stories, but letting yourself feel your feelings. And I think doing that through great question asking meaning like, why am I doing this thing? What need Am I trying to meet here? Where did I get hurt here before? You know, I think a lot of times we're scared to, or we don't even just take the time. Honestly, I think we're too busy in our minds, to think we're worth that time to ask those questions. And if you're at a place where you're like, I don't know how I'm going to take the time, then maybe it's time for you to hire a coach or a therapist, to start that conversation with you so that you can continue that conversation with yourself.

Andrea  29:46
I appreciate you acknowledging that. I just want to pause right there because I think that a) it's a very real thing that that you know, there are single parents out there. There are people who maybe aren't parents but you don't have your family around you or you've moved to a new place, and you just don't have the support system, local to you. And it's a very real thing to feel so overwhelmed and then when someone comes and says like, you need to nurture your relationship with yourself, you need to rest more, it can be enraging. And just, I want to acknowledge that. And you know what you said that it that the first place you might want to go, hopefully, they have the resources to be able to do that is with a therapist or a counselor to kind of just help them with the emotional aspect of things before they walk into the practical side of things. I just wanted to insert that. So please, continue.

Sarajane  30:38
Yeah, no, and I honestly even with this, in my book, I talk about the honest method and I think that's a good place. Like to start here with honoring your strengths. Sometimes that's, for some people gonna be the hardest, and for others the easiest, but getting to a point where you generally appreciate what you bring to the table. So when we're looking at your Enneagram type, let's start with those strengths. Start with the part of the type that you're like, yes, I bring this to the table. I am a good person, I am a loving, I am high achieving I am interesting and original, you know, I'm intelligent and informed, I'm loyal, I'm fun, I'm strong, I'm good to be around. Like, start there, build a safety felt safe Foundation, before you even get into these like shadow sides, blind spots, your vices, things that aren't serving you. Let's appreciate yourself first, so that there's a safe place.

Because if you think about it in terms of like your, this is a relationship you are in relationship to yourself. So if I were in a relationship to another person, and they were looking at me, and like pointing out all my blind spots, and being like, hey, you need to work on this, you need to fix this, you need to, you know, get it together, without ever saying, look at how much you're bringing to the table. I appreciate you so much. Thank you for being here, well, that's gonna feel bad. You know? It's kind of obviously not serving you. So, yes, start with your strengths. And then let's get into you know, where are things not working.

Andrea  32:11
Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Okay, I wanted to ask you about your book and tell us the name of it.

Sarajane  302:37
It's The Honest Enneagram.

Andrea  32:39
That's what I thought. And I was like, it's either The Honest Enneagram or The Honest Method. And I'm so sorry, I don't have it written down. Again, my brain is not screwed on. Thanks for being flexible here. Well, you in the book, you talk about a lot of different things and you have all these, you know, these different methods and teachings, and one of them is you encourage people to explore your contribution to relationships. So you just talked about exploring your contribution to you know, just to the world, your strengths, if you will. So how would somebody start with that, especially if they've had maybe a string of relationships that that hasn't worked out. Because I know, from personal experience, I had two back to back horrible relationships that fell apart and I walked out of the second one thinking, I am bad at relationships. I am hard to be attached to. I'm just so difficult, you know, all the complaints that my ex has had about me have to be true, or else I would have been able to work this out. So where does Where does someone go from there to explore their contribution to relationships?

Sarajane  33:30
Yeah, so you know, I think, really, what I encourage people to do is to focus on themselves in arelationship, because the question I get the most often is, how do I get my type blank partner to blank? So how do I get my type one partner to have more fun with me? You know, this question around, like, how do I change the person that I'm in a relationship with? And to me, that's not the goal, right? So like, all of those partners who made you feel like you were too much, thank God, you're not with those people. Right? Like, I'm partners. Yeah. Right. And I think that that's like, ultimately, the message is like that sensation that we want to change other people is just a fruitless conversation because our job to interact with the people in our lives is to love them, and to support them and to be a part of them. That doesn't mean we don't have boundaries, it doesn't mean we don't have expectations. But we're gonna get to those boundaries and those expectations through exploring our contribution. What am I bringing to the table? What can I truly control? What are my unmet expectations that I'm not communicating? Because again, we have these nine ways of being, these very specific worldviews of what we think being a person is supposed to be.

And I think that's, that's one of the beauties of the Enneagram, right, is that we've been swimming in this water, right? Like I was a seven my whole life, you know, and I thought, well, everybody just wants to be happy all the time. Everybody's seeking satisfaction constantly. So when someone was being pessimistic or someone was having a really hard time I felt like they were wallowing. Like, well, why are you sitting in it? Like you need it. Come on, get it together. When in reality like, oh, yeah, there's like a whole way of being and actually, I could stand to sit in it for a minute. And they're sitting over here offering me space to sit in it because they're able to wallow in it. So it really opens us up to appreciating other people and really owning what am I bringing to the table both good and not always helpful?

Andrea  35:29
Okay, I love that. Well, and I want to ask, just, I'm just curious about this, where did that Enneagram come from? Didn't someone just like, dream it or something and came up with it? Or am I mistaking that for a different personality test?

Sarajane  35:45
No, I think someone I think Claudio Naranjo says that he… I mean, that channeling is not the right word, but that he like free, it was like free riding essentially and it came out through that. However, there are earlier teachers. So George Gurdjieff, and Oscar Ichazo, both of those people came first. And Claudio Naranjo has kind of version of the Enneagram is kind of a morphing of their two earlier additions from from decades ago.

Andrea  36:16
Okay. And where do you recommend people, if they haven't taken it already, like, do you have a link on your site, or the test there, or do you recommend that they go to a specific website to take the real test?

Sarajane  36:29
You know, I should have a test but the truth is that I don't think tests are helpful because it's so easy to miss type. So I really just encourage you to read the type descriptions. You can do that in my book  The Honest Enneagram. Or you can do that on a website, like the EnneagramInstitute.com. They have great descriptions. And when you read it, you'll know.

Andrea  36:53
So talk to me again about when people take the test that they often miss type. How does that happen? Like, as they're answering the questions what's happening?

Sarajane  37:02
Well, because the test is based off of motivation, and kind of what you think you're supposed to be. So it'll ask things like, do you think it's important to be helpful? And almost every woman is gonna be like, yes.

Andrea  37:18
Actually, I don't know how… I would answer that kind of neutral and like, times, but not all the time.

Sarajane  37:23
Yeah. Right. And I think like, there's some types that like, I think threes and eights specifically tend to be pretty clear, like, don't miss type as often, just because you're such strong characters. But yeah, but it's pretty common to miss type, just because you don't always know your motivation and sometimes the questions are pretty vague. And we're like, yeah, I think a good person would say this. You might answer on who we think we're supposed to be, rather than who we are.

Andrea  37:53
So that's what I talk about when I'm talking to people about values is that it's not, because if you read this long list of values, and attributes, and virtues, and all of them seem important, like, oh, yes, I should be a courageous person, a generous person, I should value giving back and being of service and, like, quite personally, that's not one of mine. Like I do a little bit, but it's not my top, it's not in my top three, for sure. And it can be easy to feel like someone's going to judge me for what my Enneagram type is or what my values are. And I could see how that would happen.

And I've also, I've also thought about this, and when it comes to any personality test is, it doesn't take into consideration the nuance of things like childhood trauma, and, you know, any kind of like ability or disability or class, race, like all of all of these things, I think can matter to how you see the world and how you react to the world and your behavior. And I just think that human beings are incredibly complex.

Sarajane  39:04
Yeah, and there's this fun thing called overlays in the Enneagram where if you're raised in a strong culture, whether that's a religion, or a race, or a, you know, viewing United States as a culture, maybe your family has a strong culture, that you're going to resemble those types. So I grew up Southern Baptist, a woman in a Southern Baptist Church so like, I typed as a two, because they're gonna write That’s a pretty strong Christian overlay but my dominant type is sevens.

Andrea  39:34
That's so fascinating. Okay, well tell everyone where… we'll put definitely put a link to your site and your socials and your book in the show notes. But where do you want people to go to learn more about you and to follow you online?

Sarajane  39:48
Yeah, so I actually have a podcast that goes five days of the week. Every few…

Andrea  39:51
I've been on it.

Sarajane  39:54
Yes. And Andrea has been on it so you guys can come check it out. It's Enneagram and Coffee on iTunes or anywhere you listen to podcasts. That's like the most informational place that I would check out. Or come hang out with me on Instagram @SarahjaneCase on Instagram now.

Andrea  40:09
@SaraJaneCase on Instragram. You have you do podcasts five days a week?

Sarajane  40:11
I do five days a week.

Andrea  40:13
Oh my gosh, you are a type two.

Sarajane  40:16
That's like seven behavior.

Andrea  40:22
Let's have fun and I am going to please everyone. So when you get synergy I love this conversation. And I love how it's slightly different when I talk to different Enneagram experts. And it's just it's such a fun thing, I think and everyone, thank you so much for being here. I value your time so much. Sarajane, thank you for being here. Is there anything that we missed that you want to make sure that we cover before we say goodbye?

Sarajane  40:48
Oh, thank you. No, I feel great. Thank you for having me. Yeah.

Andrea  40:52
Okay. Okay. I just wanted to make sure and everyone listening. Remember, it's our life's journey to make ourselves better humans and our life's responsibility to make the world a better place. Bye for now.

Hey, everyone, thanks again for listening to the show and just a quick reminder that if your company needs a speaker or a trainer, I might be the right person for you. I speak and do keynotes on confidence and resilience for mixed audiences as well as do trainings on the Daring Way which is the methodology based on the research of Dr. Brené. Brown. So if you think it might be a good fit, hit me up at support@AndreaOwen.com or head over to my speaking page AndreaOwen.com/speaking.